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Balance of Terror continuity

Basically, the "invisibility is theoretical" aspect of Spock's "BoT" analyses is a lost cause already. But the "no Romulans were ever seen" thing is still consistent with the rest of the Star Trek universe - and if there's ever to be a continuation of the saga, it would be interesting if the consistency could be maintained. In that respect, much depends on the way we interpret Spock's words: literal truths, tiny slips of the tongue, fatal misunderstandings, blatant and devious lies? There's lots of fun to be had with each of those four interpretations...

Although personally I'd prefer not to involve Spock in an evil disinformation campaign, not even if his motivations could be established as perfectly logical. Fatal misunderstandings are fun but we should get the payoff at some point after the episode, in the internal chronology sense. Essentially, it should be inserted into the TOS continuity somehow, even though the TOS cast can only be re-hired in virtual form now. Minor misunderstanding on the part of the audience due to language ambiguities or slips of tongue... A valid and time-honored retcon device, that. But the literal truth might be the most fun of them all.

Timo Saloniemi
 
You guys all realize that if we applied this level of anal to TOS's internal continuity the whole thing would collapse into James R. Kirk's open grave, right? Retcons are not a crime, and there is no hidden depth or secret pattern to what Spock said in "Balance of Terror" which makes it fit perfectly with Enterprise.

But you're not going literally enough :)

James "R" Kirk from a guy that didn't like him? Did it come from Kirk or some official information?

Or when and how did Kirk die? On the Enterprise-B in "Generations" according to Scotty or was he still alive to bring the old Enterprise out of mothballs in "Relics" according to Scotty?

When did World War 3 take place? And the Eugenics Wars?

Just a bunch of quantum alternate parallel mirror prime original altered unaltered timeline continuity universes to me, IMHO.

And it's Paramount CBS DC Comical! :D
 
The thing is that Enterprise for the most part never violated what was established in TOS to a large degree.

Spock's claims were that the ships and weapons were primitive by THEIR standards.
Exhibit A: 'In a mirror Darkly' Enterprise episode, a constitution class under the name Defiant promptly destroyed Andorian, Vulcan and Tholian ships with but a few phaser shots.
Furthermore, it's shields were impervious to their weapons exhibiting the TOS technology grand superiority over Enterprise era.

Some of other Spock's claims are in fact ridiculous.
To suggest that ships lacked technological capability to communicate with each other is quite frankly absurd.
Furthermore, Spock also claims that no human or ally ever saw a Romulan (something that Enterprise adhered to).

I can imagine there were no visual communications between Romulans and Humans/allies, but this doesn't preclude subspace communications which would probably be largely ignored by Romulans until forced to negotiate the treaty over subspace.

The 'no cloaks' bit ... well, I cannot recall if it was stated that Romulans never had this technology.
But, it's possible that Spock never got around to reviewing the data about the cloaked Romulan mine-field the NX-01 encountered.

Spock may be following logic and reason and might have had a whole lot of information at his disposal, but the situation required a quick briefing and not detailed recollection of the events.

The 'simple impulse' line from TOS can be interpreted in many ways.
If the Romulans wanted to move from outpost to outpost in the neutral zone, then they had to have had FTL capability (the presence of nacelles at the very least indicates this notion, otherwise the Earth/Romulan war would have been a bad move for Romulus in the first place).

Seriously, as others noted, TOS violated it's own continuity far more than other shows 'violated' general continuity.
And besides, most of the 'inaccuracies' are easily explainable well within the confines of Trek universe.

Enterprise did a pretty good job sticking to the pre-established aspects for the most part and doing homage to TOS (far more than any other shows did), and some minor alterations were necessary because the show was made in the early 21st century.
 
Some of other Spock's claims are in fact ridiculous.
To suggest that ships lacked technological capability to communicate with each other is quite frankly absurd.

Visually.

This is probably a hell of alot more complex than anyone here realizes. You have to be able to detect and convert the transmission into something your computers can understand. Plus overcome any encryption that said signal may employ.

Just because the Enterprise had the ability one-hundred years after the fact doesn't mean Earth had the capability during the war.
 
You guys all realize that if we applied this level of anal to TOS's internal continuity the whole thing would collapse into James R. Kirk's open grave, right?
:lol: Perfectly put.

Levity aside, there is nothing wrong with attempting decipher the meaning of the script. It's easy to determine by the mass of evidence that the creator of Trek or prop department made mistake on the tomb stone. The name never appears again.

This is clearly different.

The thing is that Enterprise for the most part never violated what was established in TOS to a large degree.
The Major Errors

-Disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war/ Yet Enterprise resolved it quite amicably.

-DS9 says only 6 Enterprises/ ENT shows us a 7th

-DS9 says NCC1701 was the 1st Enterprise/ ENT says it's wrong


-------
Small Details
-VOY says the NX-01 was named Dauntless/ ENT says it was Enterprise

-Vulcans have 3x the strength of a human/ Yet Archer beats one up handily.

-No Phasers in the 22nd century/ Yet they had something pretty darn close
--------
The TOS Errors are mostly here in BoT.
Primitive Atomics/ Yet ENT is using antimatter war heads

-Enterprise had lasers in the first episode/ ENT has phase canons and no sign of lasers.

-And then the logic Errors
-If technology was as limited as BoT suggest Romulans and Star Fleet shouldn't Warp Power

-Logically Romulans shouldn't have Cloaking devices

Where clearly the ships in the 22nd century are capable of taking captives at the very least, and HAVE taken captives.
-----
An inconsequential error like Riker in "These are the Voyages" using a holographic uniform instead of dressing up for the simulation is marginal error.


Spock's claims were that the ships and weapons were primitive by THEIR standards.
Exhibit A: 'In a mirror Darkly' Enterprise episode, a constitution class under the name Defiant promptly destroyed Andorian, Vulcan and Tholian ships with but a few phaser shots.
Yes, that's true. The writing here makes up for the match up but the abilities remain in contradiction.


Some of other Spock's claims are in fact ridiculous.
To suggest that ships lacked technological capability to communicate with each other is quite frankly absurd.
Furthermore, Spock also claims that no human or ally ever saw a Romulan (something that Enterprise adhered to).
You have to watch how you use the word ridiculous. Lots of things are worthy of listening to and understanding but ridicule is usually reserved by those at their ropes end. That's why it's part of the language of emotions and humiliation. Breaking down the language used will be more useful than the persecution of the language.

I can imagine there were no visual communications between Romulans and Humans/allies, but this doesn't preclude subspace communications which would probably be largely ignored by Romulans until forced to negotiate the treaty over subspace.
I concur.

The 'no cloaks' bit ... well, I cannot recall if it was stated that Romulans never had this technology.
But, it's possible that Spock never got around to reviewing the data about the cloaked Romulan mine-field the NX-01 encountered.
---------------------------------------
Spock:
Interesting how they became visible just a moment.
Kirk: Perhaps necessary when they use the weapons
Spock: Invisibility is theoretically possible captain, the selective bending of light, but the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem.
Spock: The blip has changed course captain in a very leisurely way. They may not be aware of us
Kirk: The invisibility screen may work both ways.
----------------------------------------


- OUTPOST 4 has no idea how the intruder disappeared.

-Spock then says(Despite seeing the ship!) that the vessel's course is heading to Romulus back through the Neutral Zone confirming it's Romulan origin. So obviously they hadn't seen that design before further supported by Kirk's earlier question of what would a Romulan ship look like after more than a century?

The 'simple impulse' line from TOS can be interpreted in many ways.
Unfortunately it can't.
Scotty: There power is simple Impulse.
--------------------------------------
That's power generation. Not a statement on FTL.
The Romulan Commander is nostalgic for his "HOME STARS" so clearly they haven't merely left the local vicinity of Romulus and Remus but have traveled far which would require FTL.

If the Romulans wanted to move from outpost to outpost in the neutral zone, then they had to have had FTL capability (the presence of nacelles at the very least indicates this notion, otherwise the Earth/Romulan war would have been a bad move for Romulus in the first place).
Yes, at the very least of the argument for FTL.
The problem is Styles says "You mean in chasing or retreating." to that the Enterprise could out run them but that doesn't really mean much. It either leads to a conundrum or a simple speed advantage because of warp generation.

Enterprise did a pretty good job sticking to the pre-established aspects for the most part and doing homage to TOS (far more than any other shows did), and some minor alterations were necessary because the show was made in the early 21st century.
I can't see "The most" that you speak of. If anything the contradictions are just as numerous or more numerous and with it's perch at the beginning makes those errors a bit more inflammatory.

The only problem that I have with your interpretation is
how can technology of the ship not allow for surrender, that being the captive portion. It has to be applied in the same way as mercy.
I feel the two aspects are in fact pretty similar, essentially two ways of saying the same thing. Taking captives is showing mercy (as opposed to the alternatives). Some technical limitation meant the ships had to shoot to kill, which prevented the showing of mercy through the taking of captives - a situation akin to submarine warfare in the latter parts of both the World Wars.

Granted that there's that titillating connection between quarter-as-accommodation and the keeping of captives. But as said before, keeping of captives is trivial. Taking of captives is the likelier interpretation of the simple "captives" in Spock's statement, as it would be nontrivial in best of conditions and might be hampered by the primitiveness of available means.

I'm not talking about feels, though. I speak of the facts, the script for one. I have rewatched the episode and the verse in question and it does...FEEL...as though the comment is some statement on mercy. But like I've stated...the order behind the subject and it's non human qualities server to rule this out

Which is why it sounds natural to assume that the "No mercy" thing was due to technical limitations (because it was mentioned in that context), and lamentably applied to the good guys as well as the opposition. Mercy would have been shown had it been "allowed". But technology "disallowed" it.

I understand your interpretation. I just don't agree with it. My aim is remove the element of interpretation by isolating a rule of progressive writing through the relation of the sentence's nearest applicable subject which isn't commentary of the human condition but rather technology as the true context.

Ultimately either the literal translation or the emphatic interpretation could be used yet ENT used neither. The ENT Enterprise has none of these limitations and they went into no trouble to show those imitations on any other ship. It's a canon violation.
 
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The majority of your argument is semantics and your counter-arguments are essentially the opposite but uses the same argument as the previous post.
 
Seriously, as others noted, TOS violated it's own continuity far more than other shows 'violated' general continuity.
And besides, most of the 'inaccuracies' are easily explainable well within the confines of Trek universe.

Well that's easy. TOS was made by a different production crew whereas the later ones were made close together and was easier to have a more cohesive continuity*

*Well, not quite, post-TOS they violated their own continuity alot too. TOS violated its own continuity to some extent, but which specific ones are you referring to out of curiosity?

Deks said:
Spock's claims were that the ships and weapons were primitive by THEIR standards.
Exhibit A: 'In a mirror Darkly' Enterprise episode, a constitution class under the name Defiant promptly destroyed Andorian, Vulcan and Tholian ships with but a few phaser shots.
Furthermore, it's shields were impervious to their weapons exhibiting the TOS technology grand superiority over Enterprise era.

Wait - that example illustrates a ship named the USS Defiant that may or may not have time-traveled back decades fighting ships from an alternate universe that might be connected to the one as seen in "Mirror, Mirror"? All that demonstrates is a ship from another universe/dimension had vastly superior weapons to ships from another universe/dimension but not directly related to the Enterprise universe (whichever timeline they happen to be in) and some other random universe :)

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/s7/7x11/parallels308.jpg





The only way I see that any inaccuracy could be explainable in the context of the whole series is that they aren't all in the same continuity/universe/timeline like how comic books are done :)

So in the Enterprise Universe, their "Balance of Terror" episode went like this:


SPOCK [OC]: As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought,
SPOCK [OC]: By our standards today, with primitive phase weapons and in primitive space vessels
SPOCK: With the Romulans unwilling to offer or receive any mercy in battle. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth. The treaty, set by sub-space radio, established this Neutral Zone, entry into which by either side, would constitute an act of war. The treaty has been unbroken since that time. Captain.
...
Spock: Invisibility has been recorded in several earlier encounters captain, but the power cost is enormous. They may have solved that problem.

:D
 
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Spock said it was theoretical, so they knew the theory was sound. How did they know? By the prior cloaked ships the Suliban used. It's by watching them that they got their theory. ;)
 
^^Not just the Suliban. There was also that cloaked ship that hid in the ion or was it the warp field wake of ships too. Might be another one also that had cloaking tech. Definitely not theoretical in Enterprise :)
 
Oh, for the love of Pete....people are still bringing up the Dauntless? :guffaw:

Apparently they have already forgotten that this ship was FAKE. It was an alien ship disguised as a Starfleet vessel. There is no evidence that any real Starfleet ship with that name ever existed at all.
 
And the term "NX" is just used on ANY prototype ship. The Defiant was an NX, remember? So was the Excelsior.
 
The majority of your argument is semantics and your counter-arguments are essentially the opposite but uses the same argument as the previous post.

The truth is in the pudding.

“the quality, effectiveness or truth of something can only be judged by putting it into action or to its intended use”

Exercising the details helps toward that goal. ENT clearly fails to put these details to use and thus failing in it's validity as a series. It's nothing personal. You can look at the series however you want despite the facts.

Spock said it was theoretical, so they knew the theory was sound. How did they know? By the prior cloaked ships the Suliban used. It's by watching them that they got their theory. ;)


Theory is reserved for the non observed and unconfirmed but well substantiated.

And the term "NX" is just used on ANY prototype ship. The Defiant was an NX, remember? So was the Excelsior.


NX is the registry of ENTERPRISE and the same registry appears on the Dauntless with the Alpha addendum.
 
The truth is in the pudding.

Actually the proper wording is "The proof OF the pudding IS IN THE EATING." ;)

NX is the registry of ENTERPRISE and the same registry appears on the Dauntless with the Alpha addendum.

Two things about that:

1) The NX-01 Enterprise is an Earth Starfleet vessel, not a Federation Starfleet one. Those are separate organizations.

2) Even so, all this proves is that Arturis made up a number for his fake ship that sounded good, and no one in the Voyager crew thought to check historical records to bear this out. With all the excitement over finding what they thought was a ship that could take them home, I'd say it's an understandable mistake.
 
Theory is reserved for the non observed and unconfirmed but well substantiated.

No, if the Feds said that adapting to phasers/disruptors was a theoretical science after seeing the Borg do that, then it just means that they KNOW it can be done but can't do it with their own technological levels. To THEM, it's a theory.

Relativity, and all that.
 
Actually the proper wording is "The proof OF the pudding IS IN THE EATING." ;)

I've...actually never heard of that.


Two things about that:

1) The NX-01 Enterprise is an Earth Starfleet vessel, not a Federation Starfleet one. Those are separate organizations.
Don't take this the wrong way.
But that's pure speculation. There is not one shred of evidence that identifies them as mutually exclusive.
I cannot simply assume a positive or a negative without cause.
I'm not saying that it isn't a reasonable explanation but I would prefer to keep my speculation away from the baseless and gravitate that speculation to what we know.

And what we know is that the registries in the future are greater and those in the past are lesser. We see that the same NX designation appears in both. I'm going for the direct correlations.


2) Even so, all this proves is that Arturis made up a number for his fake ship that sounded good, and no one in the Voyager crew thought to check historical records to bear this out. With all the excitement over finding what they thought was a ship that could take them home, I'd say it's an understandable mistake.
Logic dictates that the registry must pass as plausible.
Considering the noteworthy of the NX-01 history I find it unreasonable that such a registry wouldn't be well known.

I also will not assume a retrograde mistake.
The burdeon of continuity always falls on the predecessor.
I have no reason, bias or no bias, to conclude in ENT's favor especially considering the amount of mistakes and mishandling of the series itself. It would assume that the powers that be knew exactly what they were doing and ...again...referring back to the mistakes, it would seem obvious either they forgot or purposely disregarded the myriad of information that came before.

I'm not inclined to go against all the facts just for a TV show.

Theory is reserved for the non observed and unconfirmed but well substantiated.

No, if the Feds said that adapting to phasers/disruptors was a theoretical science after seeing the Borg do that, then it just means that they KNOW it can be done but can't do it with their own technological levels. To THEM, it's a theory.

Relativity, and all that.

I stand by my source, sir.
 
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But that's pure speculation. There is not one shread of evidence that identifies them as mutually exclusive.

There is also no evidence that the Earth Starfleet and Federation Starfleet ARE the same organization. They could be. They could also not be. My view is a guess, but so is yours.

Logic dictates that the registry must pass as plausible.
Considering the noteworthy of the NX-01 history I find it unreasonable that such a registry wouldn't be well known.

The registry IS plausible. The Voyager crew simply looked at it, decided it was legit, and went with that. It wouldn't stand up to close scrutiny, but the crew were hardly in a position to GIVE that scrutiny. And as far as we know, they never did.
 
There is also no evidence that the Earth Starfleet and Federation Starfleet ARE the same organization. They could be. They could also not be. My view is a guess, but so is yours.

I cannot concur.
They are both named Star Fleet. They're other details which support the conclusion but this is the strongest of the supporting evidence. This is a direct correlation. And nothing from canon contradicts it directly. So again, I need to be prompted before I assume that these two entities are essentially similar in name only.

The registry IS plausible. The Voyager crew simply looked at it, decided it was legit, and went with that. It wouldn't stand up to close scrutiny, but the crew were hardly in a position to GIVE that scrutiny. And as far as we know, they never did.
Is it plausible? Yes. Yet I cannot assume they're ignorance without positive information.

Just for example:
Loud Thunder goes off outside the banquet hall of lively party. Logically I assume everyone heard it. I COULD assume that someone in the party was deaf and did not hear it. But why would I do that? Just as obvious as that thunder the NX-01's registry should have been immediately recognizable. I could assume that 375 people were simply distracted, or ignorant. But it would be illogical to make the assumption without being prompted and highly improbable. Even after the "jig was up" they still didn't realize it.

Obviously from an external point of view of the Star Trek Universe the writers of Voyager knew nothing of a ship named ENTERPRISE 300 years ago and the Producers of ENT didn't check their resources which they should have done when creating a prequel.
 
They are both named Star Fleet.
Big surprise, since both of them are star fleets. Is the Royal Navy the same organization as the United States Navy because both of them are Navies?

(Indeed, the world today is full of Royal Navies and Royal Air Forces. The Universal Translator would have a field day coping with those!)

And the argument that NX-01A or NX-01-A is a "holy" registry that should be reserved for ships of a specific name (be it Enterprise or Dauntless) is just about the most idiotic one I've ever heard. There's no logical basis behind it, and no precedent either from the real world or the Trek one.

The idea of inanimate objects being incapable of mercy sounds almost as fantastic; I've never come across anything approaching this sort of a limitation in the use of the English language. And it's an irrelevant concern anyway, because there are no plausible alternate explanations to it: the act of fighting a war with primitive ships prevented either the showing of mercy, or the providing of accommodation, and the latter idea is so irrational as to be laughable. Primitiveness of vessels cannot prevent and never has prevented the storing of captives; if there really is lack of accommodation, then prize crews are the solution.

The Major Errors
Disastrous first contact with the Klingon Empire led to decades of war/ Yet Enterprise resolved it quite amicably.
What makes us think that this was the first contact with the Klingons? Or that we ever saw the war?

Picard doesn't speak of human first contact, and we never saw or heard of "decades of war" between the Klingons and the humans. The only such war ever mentioned lasted for a couple of days.

If anything, ENT steered clear of a potential continuity error here, sidestepping Picard's ill-written statement without contradicting it.

DS9 says only 6 Enterprises/ ENT shows us a 7th
DS9 says NCC1701 was the 1st Enterprise/ ENT says it's wrong
Those are valid points. And could have been avoided by designating the NX-01 anything but "starship", because the TNG and DS9 statements about Enterprises were specific to starships.

Now we have to pretend they were specific to UFP Starfleet starships, which is a clumsy patch.

I wouldn't have minded following the adventures of the starship Endeavor, either. Or the Dauntless for that matter. But really...

VOY says the NX-01 was named Dauntless/ ENT says it was Enterprise
This is utter bullshit. VOY only says NX-01A (or NX-01-A) was named Dauntless. This creates no obligations on how the registry or the name, in whole or in part, should be used elsewhere.

The Dauntless was supposed to be the first of her kind. Of course she'd feature "1" and/or "A" somewhere in her ID art!

Vulcans have 3x the strength of a human/ Yet Archer beats one up handily.
So do e.g. Ardanan Troglytes in TOS. Apparently, 3x human strength is no major advantage in combat. (Which really is intuitively clear: a guy capable of lifting 150 kg can readily be beaten/killed in hand-to-hand by a guy capable of lifting 50 kg, since the use of punches and kicks in combat is more or less independent of strength beyond a certain point, and humans in Trek always fight with punches and kicks. Spock is not impact-proof.)

No Phasers in the 22nd century/ Yet they had something pretty darn close
But Worf's statement in "A Matter of Time", if taken in the logical context, would establish that phasers were invented in the 22nd century (the question was, "what tech discovery do you appreciate the most"). Which is what we see happen.

The TOS Errors are mostly here in BoT.
Primitive Atomics/ Yet ENT is using antimatter war heads
Might be the same thing. But agreed that "The Expanse" need not have introduced AM warheads, just like "Minefield" need not have introduced invisibility devices.

Enterprise had lasers in the first episode/ ENT has phase canons and no sign of lasers.
False. The ship in "The Cage" did not use, show or brag on any sort of weaponry at all. For all we know, she was unarmed, or then armed with plasma guns, or with black hole generators. But since this is Star Trek, the natural assumption is that she packed phasers.

If technology was as limited as BoT suggest Romulans and Star Fleet shouldn't Warp Power
Bullshit. "BoT" never places any limitations on the past warp power capabilities of the belligerents.

Logically Romulans shouldn't have Cloaking devices
Logically, they should - how else could they remain visually unidentified? But as per "BoT" dialogue, they shouldn't. "BoT" just represents a phenomenally bad instance of "concept" writing, dropping the wonderful invisibility ball it has when holding onto it would so nicely help explain the other "concept", that of a never-seen enemy.

Where clearly the ships in the 22nd century are capable of taking captives at the very least, and HAVE taken captives.
Yup, that's the major concern here.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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