Bajor's Application to the Federation.

[R. Star]

But the Bajorians on several occassions expressed resentment towards the Federation for not helping them. It's hard to blame them too. The Federation/Cardassian Border War took place in the 2350's and 60's(the armistice signed in 2366 and the peace treaty in 2370), and even though there's a subjugated world with an active resistance, the Federation didn't once step in? Yeah I'd be mad too if I was them.

Regardless of how self-righteous the UFP appears on the surface, we have absolutely no responsibility to free Bajor of Cardassian Occupation. As much as the UFP would like to think of themselves as the moral protectors of the universe, we have no business creating certain war between the Cardassian Union and the UFP. Even more lives would be lost in such a war than in the entire course of the Cardassian Occupation.

Not sure why you put my quote under MacLeod's name, but whatever. I mentioned nothing about self-righteous and even dismissed morality from my arguement. It's call simple strategic common sense.

The Federation and Cardassians -were- at war in the 2350's over a completely unrelated issue. There's nothing to "create" it happened. I didn't even say free the Bajorians, I said help them. It's common sense that if you're at war, you supply the dissident movements within said enemy with supplies and weapons. Every soldier putting down those rebels is a soldier not fighting against you.

If you added morals into the equation, Federation intereference would be all the more compelling.

 

[Sjaddix]

True basic strategy fund some guerrilla campaign to destabalize cardassians and divert troops away from front.

 

[Timo]

...Although the UFP might refuse to do such a thing for humanitarian reasons. After all, sending weapons to the underdog would only ensure that the oppressor ramps up the oppression, takes off the velvet gloves and increases the overall misery of the underdog, while the odds of the oppressor being weakened in any way are infinitesimally small.

For all we know, the UFP did supply weapons (say, those Klingon rifles we see in "Shakaar") to the resistance, which is why Bajor suffered so much.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

...Although the UFP might refuse to do such a thing for humanitarian reasons. After all, sending weapons to the underdog would only ensure that the oppressor ramps up the oppression, takes off the velvet gloves and increases the overall misery of the underdog, while the odds of the oppressor being weakened in any way are infinitesimally small.

For all we know, the UFP did supply weapons (say, those Klingon rifles we see in "Shakaar") to the resistance, which is why Bajor suffered so much.

Timo Saloniemi

refusing to aid the oppressed for humanitarian reasons? That's a new one.

History has shown many examples of resistance groups turning the tide thanks to getting the weapons and supplies they need, and the Cardassians hardly needed an excuse to step up the oppression.

 

[Paul Weaver]

[Most importantly, the government itself borderlines a Theocracy, as the Vedek assembly and the Kai are often portrayed as having more power than the Provisional Government and the first minister!

Indeed, and Rapture shows this. At the signing ceremony Winn is there, but there's no sign of Shakaar.

In reality we know they couldn't afford the actor who played him, but a line explaining that "First Minister Shakaar is undergooing emergency surgery on his right dohicky, but second Ministor Bob will be filling in" wouldn't have gone amiss.

 

[MacLeod]

^That quote doesn't belong to me.

 

[Sci]

The Federation is not as good and pure, and Bajor is not as corrupt and troubled, as the original poster makes them seem.

 

[Timo]

History has shown many examples of resistance groups turning the tide thanks to getting the weapons and supplies they need

...For example?

On Bajor, there was no tide that we know of. The planet was simply occupied and that was it. The war the Union had with the Federation did not seem to touch Bajor in any way, and to our knowledge wasn't concluded in a way that would have been altered by resistance on Bajor. Say, we never heard of Bajor's dwindling riches being crucial to the war effort, or the system being in a strategically important location (apart from being the penultimate world to conquer for anybody wishing to conquer Cardassia itself).

In order for a beefed-up resistance to make a difference, there would have to exist a separate campaign to liberate Bajor or conquer Cardassia in the first place. Neither of these was indicated to be in the UFP agenda at any point. And in the sordid history of warfare on Earth, "helping" local resistance will only get it utterly destroyed unless the help is withheld until the very last moment before your own forces crush the occupying force. When the occupying power is strong enough to actually be engaged in open war somewhere else (and basically regardless of whether it's winning or losing there), uprisings fail as a rule.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

History has shown many examples of resistance groups turning the tide thanks to getting the weapons and supplies they need

...For example?

On Bajor, there was no tide that we know of. The planet was simply occupied and that was it. The war the Union had with the Federation did not seem to touch Bajor in any way, and to our knowledge wasn't concluded in a way that would have been altered by resistance on Bajor. Say, we never heard of Bajor's dwindling riches being crucial to the war effort, or the system being in a strategically important location (apart from being the penultimate world to conquer for anybody wishing to conquer Cardassia itself).

In order for a beefed-up resistance to make a difference, there would have to exist a separate campaign to liberate Bajor or conquer Cardassia in the first place. Neither of these was indicated to be in the UFP agenda at any point. And in the sordid history of warfare on Earth, "helping" local resistance will only get it utterly destroyed unless the help is withheld until the very last moment before your own forces crush the occupying force. When the occupying power is strong enough to actually be engaged in open war somewhere else (and basically regardless of whether it's winning or losing there), uprisings fail as a rule.

Timo Saloniemi

how does the successful Afghanistan resistance against the Soviets and resistance movements in Central America against the Soviets square with your very flawed model that "aiding resistance movements always makes things worse?"


Really that's just such a baffling theory that I don't know how you came up with it.

 

[Sci]

[Most importantly, the government itself borderlines a Theocracy, as the Vedek assembly and the Kai are often portrayed as having more power than the Provisional Government and the first minister!

Certainly the Bajoran Church is a powerful institution, but its relationship with the Bajoran government is unclear. We know that a sitting Kai can run for First Minister (and can serve as First Minister Pro Tempore if a First Minister dies but a new election has not been held), but that such involvement in political matters is discouraged; we know that sometimes Vedeks can be empowered to negotiate with foreign powers on behalf of the Bajoran state. And we know that the Bajoran Church can influence public opinion and therefore government policy.

That's it. That's the full extent of what we know about the relationship between Bajoran Church and State.

So it's not fair to conclude that Bajor is a theocracy. There is no evidence that the Church ultimately controls the state. Rather, it appears to be a situation where the state has an established church, but the church's leaders and the government's leaders each have their own power base and a tradition of staying out of one-another's matters, which more or less prevent both sides from encroaching on the other's turf.

I would argue that the most relevant question with regards to Bajoran membership in the Federation would be the rights and treatment of religious minorities. So far as I know, we have no data on this, except insofar as we know that some Bajorans worship the Pagh-wraiths. There is, I think, a legitimate question about how the state should react towards religious minorities who worship entities who can be empirically proven to exist and who have a demonstrable hostility towards the state and society at large.

[Most importantly, the government itself borderlines a Theocracy, as the Vedek assembly and the Kai are often portrayed as having more power than the Provisional Government and the first minister!

Indeed, and Rapture shows this. At the signing ceremony Winn is there, but there's no sign of Shakaar.

To be fair, the ceremony that Sisko interrupts just as it's getting started is never explicitly identified. Indeed, not only is the First Minister of Bajor missing -- but so is the media. It's being held in the extremely small, extremely private DS9 wardroom -- which makes me think that it may not have been the signing ceremony itself, but, perhaps, a pre-signing ceremony.

 

[Timo]

how does the successful Afghanistan resistance against the Soviets and resistance movements in Central America against the Soviets square with your very flawed model that "aiding resistance movements always makes things worse?"

Excellent examples. In what way do you believe this armed resistance did not make things worse there?

Okay, so bad guys fighting more bad guys is the short definition of war, yes. So bad guys winning isn't much of a surprise there. But without all the small arms, excellent for terrorizing the civilian population but basically useless for repelling an invader, you'd have the bad guys without all the suffering.

Let's have it out: which of these proxy wars in your opinion improved the situation for the local people?

Certainly the Bajoran Church is a powerful institution, but its relationship with the Bajoran government is unclear. We know that a sitting Kai can run for First Minister (and can serve as First Minister Pro Tempore if a First Minister dies but a new election has not been held), but that such involvement in political matters is discouraged; we know that sometimes Vedeks can be empowered to negotiate with foreign powers on behalf of the Bajoran state. And we know that the Bajoran Church can influence public opinion and therefore government policy.

The interesting aspect here is that this basically leaves nothing for the civilian government to do. It's not seen doing anything unless the clergy is involved as well; it might as well not exist at all.

Okay, it may be doing all the valuable but invisible background work. But as far as appearances go, it's out of the actual politics, the thing where people get represented and can exert an influence.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Sci]

Certainly the Bajoran Church is a powerful institution, but its relationship with the Bajoran government is unclear. We know that a sitting Kai can run for First Minister (and can serve as First Minister Pro Tempore if a First Minister dies but a new election has not been held), but that such involvement in political matters is discouraged; we know that sometimes Vedeks can be empowered to negotiate with foreign powers on behalf of the Bajoran state. And we know that the Bajoran Church can influence public opinion and therefore government policy.

The interesting aspect here is that this basically leaves nothing for the civilian government to do. It's not seen doing anything unless the clergy is involved as well; it might as well not exist at all.

This is an exaggeration. We've seen the Bajoran government doing plenty of things by itself without Church involvement -- most prominently among them, applying for Federation membership.

 

[Deranged Nasat]

[Most importantly, the government itself borderlines a Theocracy, as the Vedek assembly and the Kai are often portrayed as having more power than the Provisional Government and the first minister!

Indeed, and Rapture shows this. At the signing ceremony Winn is there, but there's no sign of Shakaar.

In reality we know they couldn't afford the actor who played him, but a line explaining that "First Minister Shakaar is undergooing emergency surgery on his right dohicky, but second Ministor Bob will be filling in" wouldn't have gone amiss.

Of course, that's the same signing ceremony in which Starfleet admirals appear to be representing the Federation, so it wasn't a very good day all round for sensible representation of government.

 

[sonak]

how does the successful Afghanistan resistance against the Soviets and resistance movements in Central America against the Soviets square with your very flawed model that "aiding resistance movements always makes things worse?"

Excellent examples. In what way do you believe this armed resistance did not make things worse there?

Okay, so bad guys fighting more bad guys is the short definition of war, yes. So bad guys winning isn't much of a surprise there. But without all the small arms, excellent for terrorizing the civilian population but basically useless for repelling an invader, you'd have the bad guys without all the suffering.

Let's have it out: which of these proxy wars in your opinion improved the situation for the local people?

Certainly the Bajoran Church is a powerful institution, but its relationship with the Bajoran government is unclear. We know that a sitting Kai can run for First Minister (and can serve as First Minister Pro Tempore if a First Minister dies but a new election has not been held), but that such involvement in political matters is discouraged; we know that sometimes Vedeks can be empowered to negotiate with foreign powers on behalf of the Bajoran state. And we know that the Bajoran Church can influence public opinion and therefore government policy.

The interesting aspect here is that this basically leaves nothing for the civilian government to do. It's not seen doing anything unless the clergy is involved as well; it might as well not exist at all.

Okay, it may be doing all the valuable but invisible background work. But as far as appearances go, it's out of the actual politics, the thing where people get represented and can exert an influence.

Timo Saloniemi

I never said anything about the ideologies of the oppressed vs. the oppressor, just that aiding resistance movements can be successful. Looking at the examples, those resistance movements significantly weakened the Soviets and Communism in general. They were a smashing success from a Cold War perspective. And the Soviets were driven out of Afghanistan. What happened after that is no more relevant to your point than what the Bajorans did after the Occupation ended.

And it sounds like your solution is to just keep the bad guys there on the grounds that fighting back just makes things worse. I'm glad you're not a rebel leader, you'd be very uninspiring.

 

[Timo]

I dispute the idea that the resistance actually contributed anything militarily. The losses inflicted to the Soviet military in Afghanistan were materially insignificant at a time when no other wars were ongoing; public opinion in turn could hardly be swayed by such distant events, and in any case was of no significance in the Soviet context. Of course, it's a nice tale to tell afterwards, that the uprising played a part in the Cold War. But the part played was that of being a nice tale to tell!

It's not as if the resistance in Iraq is contributing anything, either. If anything, it justifies a continuing occupation, and the scale and span of that occupation is determined by wholly external factors.

Uprisings that do not involve an externally imposed occupation are another matter in that the occupying force has no other power base to draw from besides the one being disputed by the rebellion. Cardassia is as different from, say, Libya or Syria in this respect as can possibly be imagined. It appears that the occupation of Bajor was done in a highly standoffish manner: even the refinery for exploiting the key local resources was placed in orbit! Apart from near-suicidal sabotage missions to that station such as discussed in "Necessary Evil", the resistance had little hope of touching the occupiers, and would have to concentrate on terrorizing their fellow Bajorans instead. Which is all we hear them ever doing, save for one interesting exception.

So what to make of the one positive blow for freedom, the liberation of the Gallitep labor camp "twelve years" before the events of "Duet"? In 2357-58, the Cardassian presence in Bajor was at its height, with Dukat soon to assume command of Terok Nor. How could Gallitep remain liberated? Well, there had been this terrible accident with poison gas, with Cardassian casualties... A perfect time for the resistance to move in on property Cardassia no longer wanted!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

I dispute the idea that the resistance actually contributed anything militarily. The losses inflicted to the Soviet military in Afghanistan were materially insignificant at a time when no other wars were ongoing; public opinion in turn could hardly be swayed by such distant events, and in any case was of no significance in the Soviet context. Of course, it's a nice tale to tell afterwards, that the uprising played a part in the Cold War. But the part played was that of being a nice tale to tell!

It's not as if the resistance in Iraq is contributing anything, either. If anything, it justifies a continuing occupation, and the scale and span of that occupation is determined by wholly external factors.

Uprisings that do not involve an externally imposed occupation are another matter in that the occupying force has no other power base to draw from besides the one being disputed by the rebellion. Cardassia is as different from, say, Libya or Syria in this respect as can possibly be imagined. It appears that the occupation of Bajor was done in a highly standoffish manner: even the refinery for exploiting the key local resources was placed in orbit! Apart from near-suicidal sabotage missions to that station such as discussed in "Necessary Evil", the resistance had little hope of touching the occupiers, and would have to concentrate on terrorizing their fellow Bajorans instead. Which is all we hear them ever doing, save for one interesting exception.

So what to make of the one positive blow for freedom, the liberation of the Gallitep labor camp "twelve years" before the events of "Duet"? In 2357-58, the Cardassian presence in Bajor was at its height, with Dukat soon to assume command of Terok Nor. How could Gallitep remain liberated? Well, there had been this terrible accident with poison gas, with Cardassian casualties... A perfect time for the resistance to move in on property Cardassia no longer wanted!

Timo Saloniemi

your point about the Cardassian occupation is an interesting one. We don't see a lot of the details of day-to-day operations, but if it was done mostly by Bajoran collaborators since the Cardassian presence was limited or far away, that might mean a strategy of targeting those collaborators makes sense from the perspective of the Bajoran resistance, however muddy the ethics of such a strategy.

 

[Timo]

It is a fairly common strategy of resistance, but it isn't a very effective one, as it creates instant allies for the occupying force from all of those who find the resistance fighters the more disgusting enemy. Plus, most occupations tended to be permanent up until about sixty years ago, when territorial conquest ceased to be worth the while, mainly for technological reasons; previously, it was rare indeed for the occupying force to be driven away, so the best possible strategy of survival was that of non-resistance.

Liberation of Gallitep is really weird in so many ways. According to Marritza's lies, Gul Darhe'el was there to witness the Cardassian withdrawal from Bajor - yet in reality, he died six years before that.

a) Wouldn't Gallitep survivors know whether Darhe'el was alive or dead, or at least present or absent, during or just before the liberation? How come Marritza would risk a blatant untruth of such magnitude at his most desperate hour, when he needs to deceive Kira the most?

b) If Darhe'el was there to order the execution of remaining Bajoran laborers at the hour of withdrawal, wouldn't that mean the camp was not liberated until said hour?

I guess we could say that Kira and Shakaar didn't liberate the camp "twelve years ago" but in fact a timeline-fitting "twelve months ago", a slip of the angered tongue. That would mean the resistance never achieved a single victory of any significance, though. And the Gallitep survivors having "always" been a symbol and source of courage for Bajorans would give a really modest definition to the word "always"...

Timo Saloniemi