Bajor's Application to the Federation.

[Parrots_United]

I know that Bajor joined the Federation exclusively in the non canon books, (Unity) but I personally was surprised that in Rapture (5x10), if Ben Sisko hadn't given a prophecy about the fate of Bajor in the Federation, the UFP would have accepted Bajor's application of membership.

I feel that the Federation borderlines absolute Utopia, and the UFP exclusively invites planets with well developed ethics, technology, culture, unification. In DS9, it seems that Bajor does not have many these qualities.

In Bajor, the Provisional Government is unstable, Bajor is divided into several nation-like provinces, and there are warring factions. Most importantly, the government itself borderlines a Theocracy, as the Vedek assembly and the Kai are often portrayed as having more power than the Provisional Government and the first minister! In addition to this, the Bajoran government (including the Vedek Assembly) and the general public tend to display xenophobia, (even to the Federation!) technological ineptitude, and complete prejudice against Cardassians.

What I'm trying to say is that during the course of DS9, Bajor displays many primitive traits contrary to the standards of joining the UFP established in several TNG episodes, and I was wondering whether anyone else is skeptical about Bajor's acceptance to the UFP.

 

[Dick_Valentine]

Having an interstellar wormhole that the Federation were desperate to lay claim to probably meant their application was rushed through somewhat.

I'm sure the Federations decision went something along the lines of "Yes great, having the wormhole works great for you and will work great for us too, however don't think we won't be having some serious conversations about how you run your planet once you're a member"

I just assume the "getting the planets shizz together" part that normally happens before membership is accepted would happen with them being members instead, it made sense to do it that way, particularly in that political climate.

 

[sonak]

yeah, I also think that Bajor's strategic importance probably meant that the Federation was more lenient in its standards for application.

 

[Miami_Marlins]

With Vedic Winn in charge, the Federation should have steered clear of Bajor. However, the Cardasian threat, the Dominion War, and the wormhole's importance made Bajor too strategic for the Federation simply sit around and wait until Bajor cleaned its act.

 

[Parrots_United]

Yeah, I guess It was the right move to accept them, but what I'm saying is that they are a peculiar addition of the UFP

 

[Deranged Nasat]

Of course, Bajor being a peculiar addition doesn't mean it's necessarily a bad idea to bring them into the fold. I think the writers of TNG often overlooked the benefits of new perspectives and change in favour of a false sense of static perfection. I agree that the Federation should be cautious about losing its sense of identity by accepting members who depart from its particular set of values, but there should still be some gray areas. If IDIC is truly a virtue, then the Federation should be wise enough to be careful in its value judgements. For a world coming out of a 60-year occupation by a foreign power which drained it of many natural resources, Bajor seems to be doing okay in my book. I think most of the instability stems not from any inherent quality of the Bajoran culture but rather the circumstances they've been left it - perhaps the Federation feels that Bajor's stability would be assured if it was accepted into the protective fold and regained a sense of security? And we have to remember that they're one of the oldest, once most advanced civilizations in the Alpha Quadrant, with millennia of culture, art, theology, philosophy and environmental wisdom to share. Looking at their history, not only are the benefits of association with Bajoran culture clear, but they seem to do a good job at unity and stability under "normal" circumstances.

Although there is something sadly amusing in the fact that the d'jarra caste system would disqualify them for membership if the Cardassian occupation hadn't destroyed it.

 

[MacLeod]

I know that Bajor joined the Federation exclusively in the non canon books, (Unity) but I personally was surprised that in Rapture (5x10), if Ben Sisko hadn't given a prophecy about the fate of Bajor in the Federation, the UFP would have accepted Bajor's application of membership.

I feel that the Federation borderlines absolute Utopia, and the UFP exclusively invites planets with well developed ethics, technology, culture, unification. In DS9, it seems that Bajor does not have many these qualities.

In Bajor, the Provisional Government is unstable, Bajor is divided into several nation-like provinces, and there are warring factions. Most importantly, the government itself borderlines a Theocracy, as the Vedek assembly and the Kai are often portrayed as having more power than the Provisional Government and the first minister! In addition to this, the Bajoran government (including the Vedek Assembly) and the general public tend to display xenophobia, (even to the Federation!) technological ineptitude, and complete prejudice against Cardassians.

What I'm trying to say is that during the course of DS9, Bajor displays many primitive traits contrary to the standards of joining the UFP established in several TNG episodes, and I was wondering whether anyone else is skeptical about Bajor's acceptance to the UFP.

We've never really been shown what the exact requirements are for Federation Membership. We know that they have to have developed Warp Drive, have a World Government and can't have a caste based system.

Whilst it is true the Provisional Government was somewhat unstable initally it did become more stable as time went by.

As for the Vedek assembly and the Kai, perhaps it was not so much as them having more power but in the case of Winn wanting power and influence.

Given the decades long period of occupation it is only natural to expect a certain level of xenophobia. Once again as the series progressed the level of Xenophobia towards the Federation reduced. As for the Cardassians I suspcect many Bajoran's would call what happened to them at the end of the Dominion War, 'Poetic Justice'.

Of course with the wormhole, many if not virtually all Bajoran's would realise the Cardassians would be back in heartbeat if not for the Federation. So given the choice between occupation by the Cardassians or working together with the Federation, they would pick the later. Which in turn would lead to a warming of feelings towards the Federation.

 

[R. Star]

Along with the strategic points of it's location and the wormhole which have been mentioned, I actually think another factor was guilt by the Federation. They did stand by and let the Cardassians occupy Bajor. Even while Cardassia and the Federation were at war for some 15+ years, they didn't do anything to help Bajor out. So I can see their application being quietly shown some favortism as if to "counter" that.

 

[Timo]

We've never really been shown what the exact requirements are for Federation Membership. We know that they have to have developed Warp Drive, have a World Government and can't have a caste based system.

To be a bit more exact:

* we've never really heard of a requirement for warp drive
* we have seen in "Attached" that a world government that doesn't exactly cover the entire world would still be good enough
* "caste-based discrimination" was the aspect condemned by Sisko and the UFP Charter; perhaps a caste system as such could survive in a watered-down form, much like many religions today are allowed to exist even when strict adherence to their teachings would go against civil law

So Bajor might well pass with flying colors on all three points...

I actually think another factor was guilt by the Federation. They did stand by and let the Cardassians occupy Bajor.

We don't know that they stood by. For all we know, they stood far away!

No doubt every day, somebody occupies somebody in the Trek galaxy. Since we still lack good information on when the Federation or its members learned of the existence of the Bajoran culture, we can't really argue that the UFP "let" the occupation take place. For all we know, the only Bajor the UFP ever knew was the one run by Cardassia.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[R. Star]

We've never really been shown what the exact requirements are for Federation Membership. We know that they have to have developed Warp Drive, have a World Government and can't have a caste based system.

To be a bit more exact:

* we've never really heard of a requirement for warp drive
* we have seen in "Attached" that a world government that doesn't exactly cover the entire world would still be good enough
* "caste-based discrimination" was the aspect condemned by Sisko and the UFP Charter; perhaps a caste system as such could survive in a watered-down form, much like many religions today are allowed to exist even when strict adherence to their teachings would go against civil law

So Bajor might well pass with flying colors on all three points...

I actually think another factor was guilt by the Federation. They did stand by and let the Cardassians occupy Bajor.

We don't know that they stood by. For all we know, they stood far away!

No doubt every day, somebody occupies somebody in the Trek galaxy. Since we still lack good information on when the Federation or its members learned of the existence of the Bajoran culture, we can't really argue that the UFP "let" the occupation take place. For all we know, the only Bajor the UFP ever knew was the one run by Cardassia.

Timo Saloniemi

No. Picard specificly stated the Federation stood by because Bajor was legally within the boundries of the Cardassian Empire. He also specificly stated he read about the Bajorians when he was a child in school. They knew.

 

[MacLeod]

^^Well given that the PD of the 24th Cenutry seems to preclude making contact with civilisations that haven't developed FTL travel (i.e. Warp Drive). It would seem in order to be contacted you would have to have it. And if you can't be contacted due to not having FTL travel you can't be considered for membership.

 

[R. Star]

^^Well given that the PD of the 24th Cenutry seems to preclude making contact with civilisations that haven't developed FTL travel (i.e. Warp Drive). It would seem in order to be contacted you would have to have it. And if you can't be contacted due to not having FTL travel you can't be considered for membership.

Given they had refugee camps in other systems during the occupation, and after the occupation they had colonies, one of them being in the Gamma Quadrant, it's safe to assume they have warp travel.

 

[Timo]

Picard specificly stated the Federation stood by because Bajor was legally within the boundries of the Cardassian Empire.

...Which it wouldn't be until Cardassia had occupied it. Ergo, the Feds only got involved after Bajor being part of Cardassia was a done deal.

He also specificly stated he read about the Bajorians when he was a child in school.

He's supposed to have been born in 2305, so Bajorans would be known in the 2310s-20s; while the occupation timeline is vague, "Emissary" would put the start in the 2310s, so again Picard would only know of an occupied Bajor.

...it's safe to assume they have warp travel.

Indeed. Although whether they had warp (or another means of going interstellar) before the Occupation is unknown. Possibly the refugees left in ships that only became available owing to the Occupation - say, by getting aboard shipping that served Cardassian "occupational interests" (plus their inherent interest in getting rid of extraneous Bajorans).

Interestingly enough, the three types of triangular ships used by the Bajorans (starting with the one in "Ensign Ro") are also seen in the hands of Cardassians or their close allies; quite possibly the Cardassian civilization was their original source. Then again, perhaps Cardassia got those rather related-looking ships from the Bajoran culture?

It's a wholly different question whether possession of warp drive really has anything to do with whether the UFP can make contact or interfere. We saw our TNG heroes evaluate planet KesPyrr for actual UFP membership even though there was no obvious evidence of the planet possessing either warp drive or another means of interacting with the interstellar community prior to our heroes arriving.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[R. Star]

Picard specificly stated the Federation stood by because Bajor was legally within the boundries of the Cardassian Empire.

...Which it wouldn't be until Cardassia had occupied it. Ergo, the Feds only got involved after Bajor being part of Cardassia was a done deal.

He also specificly stated he read about the Bajorians when he was a child in school.

He's supposed to have been born in 2305, so Bajorans would be known in the 2310s-20s; while the occupation timeline is vague, "Emissary" would put the start in the 2310s, so again Picard would only know of an occupied Bajor.

...it's safe to assume they have warp travel.

Indeed. Although whether they had warp (or another means of going interstellar) before the Occupation is unknown. Possibly the refugees left in ships that only became available owing to the Occupation - say, by getting aboard shipping that served Cardassian "occupational interests" (plus their inherent interest in getting rid of extraneous Bajorans).

Interestingly enough, the three types of triangular ships used by the Bajorans (starting with the one in "Ensign Ro") are also seen in the hands of Cardassians or their close allies; quite possibly the Cardassian civilization was their original source. Then again, perhaps Cardassia got those rather related-looking ships from the Bajoran culture?

It's a wholly different question whether possession of warp drive really has anything to do with whether the UFP can make contact or interfere. We saw our TNG heroes evaluate planet KesPyrr for actual UFP membership even though there was no obvious evidence of the planet possessing either warp drive or another means of interacting with the interstellar community prior to our heroes arriving.

Timo Saloniemi

You're right, it's entirely possible. I could see Picard learning about the Bajorian people in a "current events" kind of way as the occupation starts.

But the Bajorians on several occassions expressed resentment towards the Federation for not helping them. It's hard to blame them too. The Federation/Cardassian Border War took place in the 2350's and 60's(the armistice signed in 2366 and the peace treaty in 2370), and even though there's a subjugated world with an active resistance, the Federation didn't once step in? Yeah I'd be mad too if I was them. That would seem common sense really to give aid to a group of guerrilas to tie down your enemy's units, all moral considerations aside.

As you said, it's unknown if they had the warp drive before the occupation, and an arguement could be made either way. And just because you have a few warp capable ships doesn't mean you have an insterstellar military to project power with either way. But even if they Bajorians got their technology from the Cardassians, they have it and it can't be undone.

With the Kes and the Prytt, one just assumes they're warp capable, even if they don't have powerful fleets since apparently all their military resources are directed at each other. Certainly they were able to make contact with the Federation suggesting they have subspace capabilities.

In "First Contact" the episode, not movie, Picard specificly stated to the Malcorians, that they avoid contact with non-warp capable species. The Malcorians just launched a warp capable probe too when such contact was established.

Maybe the rules have been broken before, in "Insurrection" Picard implies they're bending the membership rules during the Dominion War because they need all the help they can get.

Honestly though, I gotta say you have to look at membership petitions and a planet's history on a case by case basis. Bajor certainly had extenuating circumstances, and likely isn't the only world that did.

 

[MacLeod]

With regards to Bajor during the Federation-Cardassian War, perhaps Starfleet felt it couldn't mount an effective force capable of liberating the planet and holding it. After all even if the Federation had managed to liberate it, could the Bajoran's manage to hold onto it after the Federation left due to a peace treaty.

Or would the Bajoran's have asked the Federation to stay around, and become a protecterate, Associated member world?

 

[Mistral]

I agree with all of th etraits the OP ascribed to Bajor and Bajorans. In fact, they sound very...French.

 

[Parrots_United]

For a world coming out of a 60-year occupation by a foreign power which drained it of many natural resources, Bajor seems to be doing okay in my book. I think most of the instability stems not from any inherent quality of the Bajoran culture but rather the circumstances they've been left it - perhaps the Federation feels that Bajor's stability would be assured if it was accepted into the protective fold and regained a sense of security? And we have to remember that they're one of the oldest, once most advanced civilizations in the Alpha Quadrant, with millennia of culture, art, theology, philosophy and environmental wisdom to share.

The fact that the government borderlines on a theocracy was strengthened by the occupation, though that form of government was not dependent on the Cardassian Occupation. Occupation or not, Bajor would most likely place an irrational amount of power to the religious parts of government.

In terms of Ancient advancement, their early warp travel was strictly accidental, and the modern Bajoran people have very little records of the ancient Bajoran civilization, thus they are not necessarily able to model their ancestors.

But the Bajorians on several occassions expressed resentment towards the Federation for not helping them. It's hard to blame them too. The Federation/Cardassian Border War took place in the 2350's and 60's(the armistice signed in 2366 and the peace treaty in 2370), and even though there's a subjugated world with an active resistance, the Federation didn't once step in? Yeah I'd be mad too if I was them.

Regardless of how self-righteous the UFP appears on the surface, we have absolutely no responsibility to free Bajor of Cardassian Occupation. As much as the UFP would like to think of themselves as the moral protectors of the universe, we have no business creating certain war between the Cardassian Union and the UFP. Even more lives would be lost in such a war than in the entire course of the Cardassian Occupation.

Given the decades long period of occupation it is only natural to expect a certain level of xenophobia. Once again as the series progressed the level of Xenophobia towards the Federation reduced. As for the Cardassians I suspcect many Bajoran's would call what happened to them at the end of the Dominion War, 'Poetic Justice'.

Nothing justifies absolute xenophobia and/or prejudice.
Furthermore, what happened at the end of the dominion war was not by any means "poetic justice." 809 million Cardassian civilians died at the end of the dominion war, while 15 million Bajorans died during the entire 60 years of the Cardassian Occupation.

 

[MacLeod]

I think you'll find the first quote you attributed to me wasn't mine.

As for the second one, I said a "certain level" not absolute. As for the term poetic justice it is a literary term which can mean an Ironic twist of fate realted to ones character. (so Virtue would be rewarded and vice punished)

Cardassia went from occupier and plundering worlds and ensalving it's people, to occupied world with it's people all but enslaved through it's desire to rule the Galaxy.

Perhaps a simplier example of poetic justice in use would be the Road Runner cartoons.

Wile E. Coyote sets the trap in order to trap the road runner but ends up in the trap himself.

 

[-Brett-]

There are two basic ways you can interpret the UFP. One is as a hands off, pro-diversity, different is good kind of culture where regional cultures are allowed to do their own thing with few mandates from on high.

The other is as a rigid conformist monoculture where our way is the only valid way and anyone wishing to join has to adopt our culture. No exceptions.

You could probably make a valid case for either one. The writers themselves didn't seem to have decided.

Bajor joining the Federation is fairly consistent with the former, at least.

 

[R. Star]

With regards to Bajor during the Federation-Cardassian War, perhaps Starfleet felt it couldn't mount an effective force capable of liberating the planet and holding it. After all even if the Federation had managed to liberate it, could the Bajoran's manage to hold onto it after the Federation left due to a peace treaty.

Or would the Bajoran's have asked the Federation to stay around, and become a protecterate, Associated member world?

Who said anything about invading Bajor and holding it? All they had to do was send weapons, food, medicine, supplies, heck even small ships, and they'd become a huge thorn in the Cardassians sides, distracting a large number of forces away from the war with the Federation. It would cost them very little and could gain them a lot.