Baggage you wish Star Trek could be free of?

[Nightdiamond]

Over all, there was something of an anti religious attitude in Trek, mainly TNG. That statement by Picard about religion inevitably leading to superstition and dark ages is one example.

Kieko O'Brien didn't want to compromise at all about Bajoran religious beliefs and the class room.

And basically Trek leaves out religion when showing how humanity solved it problems.

Then they turned it around and had a cosmic battle between two religious figures -- messiah Sisko, antichrist Dukat.

It was like feast or famine with religion. Maybe they can let the universe be more mysterious again. Without totally avoiding religion.

 

[T'Girl]

Over all, there was something of an anti religious attitude in Trek, mainly TNG. That statement by Picard about religion inevitably leading to superstition and dark ages is one example.

But that was Picard specfically referring to the Mini-Taken's past religion and not (iirc) religion in general.

Kieko O'Brien didn't want to compromise at all about Bajoran religious beliefs and the class room.

I think that was more Kieko arrogantly imposing her perceived cultural superiority upon the Bajorian children, She didn't want to employ local terms in her lesson plan, even when (initally) politely asked to do so.

 

[Kilana2]

Kieko O'Brien didn't want to compromise at all about Bajoran religious beliefs and the class room.

I think that was more Kieko arrogantly imposing her perceived cultural superiority upon the Bajorian children, She didn't want to employ local terms in her lesson plan, even when (initally) politely asked to do so.

She patronized Rugal and offered him Cardassian food, despite the fact that he disliked it. She could have asked him what to eat, but didn´t. That was presumptuous.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Kieko O'Brien didn't want to compromise at all about Bajoran religious beliefs and the class room.

Keiko had a perfectly valid point: HER class is for the purpose of teaching kids about science, history, mathematics, etc. Keiko had no problem with the Bajoran religion as such - she even told Winn "that's your job" to teach children about that.

Just because Keiko's class is not a religious one does not mean she herself was not religious or that she had a problem with anyone's beliefs. It's simply not Keiko's job to teach religion. There is a Bajoran temple on the station, where anyone who wants to know about the Prophets can go. Keiko had no issues with that whatsoever.

 

[Kilana2]

Kieko O'Brien didn't want to compromise at all about Bajoran religious beliefs and the class room.

Keiko had a perfectly valid point: HER class is for the purpose of teaching kids about science, history, mathematics, etc. Keiko had no problem with the Bajoran religion as such - she even told Winn "that's your job" to teach children about that.

Just because Keiko's class is not a religious one does not mean she herself was not religious or that she had a problem with anyone's beliefs. It's simply not Keiko's job to teach religion. There is a Bajoran temple on the station, where anyone who wants to know about the Prophets can go. Keiko had no issues with that whatsoever.

That´s the problem with religion and science. Some beliefs are not easily reconciled with science, which is based on empirical facts.
Can obsessed people be cured by exorcism? As I´m not a catholic I don´t believe in the devil and demons in the first place . But I respect the Bajoran faith. I just don´t like Winn and her hypocritical views.

 

[Cyke101]

Kieko O'Brien didn't want to compromise at all about Bajoran religious beliefs and the class room.

Keiko had a perfectly valid point: HER class is for the purpose of teaching kids about science, history, mathematics, etc. Keiko had no problem with the Bajoran religion as such - she even told Winn "that's your job" to teach children about that.

Just because Keiko's class is not a religious one does not mean she herself was not religious or that she had a problem with anyone's beliefs. It's simply not Keiko's job to teach religion. There is a Bajoran temple on the station, where anyone who wants to know about the Prophets can go. Keiko had no issues with that whatsoever.

I fully support this separation, it gets dicier in Trek, because the religion *can* be quantified via the factual and repeatable presence of the Prophets, the Pah-Wraiths, the Celestial Temple, the Orbs, etc.

I imagine that the debate is unique in and of itself because non Bajorans (and Starfleet more generally) approach all that from scientific analysis while the Bajoran faith approaches it via religion, so the debates would probably be about demarcating the line between science and religion in that context. Indeed, science threatened all of those major figures of Bajoran faith at one point or another.

But if that's the case, I'd still argue that it would be beyond Keiko's class anyway, and is probably more suited for older students. And even then, it would probably be taught more as a cultural discussion than a religious studies course (which are two different things, to be sure).

As they say, one person's gods are another person's wormhole aliens/noncorporeal entities...

(I do recall quite a bit of pushback whenever Bajoran religious leaders entered a discussion that treated the Prophets et all scientifically, however. So even if Keiko approached the subject from a secular, purely analytical perspective, it would still meet resistance from the locals).

 

[Kor]

^ +1

These phenomena themselves are quite tangible and directly observable.

What about how the wormhole aliens think of themselves? (I can't remember all the details myself)

Did the wormhole aliens ever actually refer to themselves as "the prophets"? That was the Bajoran designation for them.

And what did they call the wormhole? "Celestial Temple" was a Bajoran term.

And then there's "orbs" vs. "tears of the prophets."

Kor

 

[martok2112]

I get tired of "fans" demanding what they want or don't want to see in Star Trek.

Fans are the ultimate baggage of any property.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

I don't mind the existence of technobabble so long as it's used for decorative purposes and not to drive the story.

Timo wrote:

"I think that was more Kieko arrogantly imposing her perceived cultural superiority upon the Bajorian children, She didn't want to employ local terms in her lesson plan, even when (initally) politely asked to do so."

I disagree with that assessment. Keiko just believed that science should be taught in school, and religion should be taught in Sunday school. School is necessarily factual and based on observable, measurable facts. It's delinquent of the duties of a teacher and a form of cultural indoctrination to diffuse scientific knowledge in the well of local religion.

I'd quote Asimov here but the quote I'm looking for is already in a moderator's sig.

 

[Taelon]

Time travel. And their tendancy to ignore technology that solved a plot point in a previous episode but then never mentioned again. Like perpetual-youth-granting transporters...

 

[T'Girl]

HER class

On a Bajorian spacestation, and with two exceptions all of the students were Bajorian.

No one ever asked Keiko to "teach religion," merely use indigenous terms. Kai Winn had no problem with Keiko teaching the mechanics of the passage, displaying a scientific diagram, or referring to veriton particles. Kai Winn was fine with Keiko teaching the children that the passage was made of them. Kia Winn merely asked that a small number of Bajorian indigenous terms be used.

 

[Kor]

^ But the indigenous terms were heavy with religious meaning. Describing a whole alien race as "prophets" doesn't seem very neutral, in terms of secular education.
Likewise with "celestial temple."

Kor

 

[Tim Walker]

I´d like to get rid of that kind of technobabble that is beyond of the average Trekkie (who is not an engineer or astrophysicist).

It´s difficult to make all the fancy gimmick comprehensible and technology is part of SciFi, but there is a limit.

Agreed! There should have been an effort to minimize that in the scripts.

 

[Kor]

I´d like to get rid of that kind of technobabble that is beyond of the average Trekkie (who is not an engineer or astrophysicist).

It´s difficult to make all the fancy gimmick comprehensible and technology is part of SciFi, but there is a limit.

You're giving the writers too much credit.

The technobabble is not actually based on real engineering or science in any way, shape, or form. It's just a bunch of technical-sounding nonsense that is supposed to make things sound more intelligent.

It isn't just "beyond the average Trekkie." It's beyond everybody.

Kor

 

[Ghrakh]

I found the technobabble at least in TNG to be a combination of real physics, speculative physics, real technology and speculative technology. It wasn't gibberish.

Edit: Does Dr. Crusher's medical lingo count as technobabble as well?

 

[Nerys Myk]

He was also 'never a Boy Scout.' Pick your backstory, or meld them together to make your own!

I think the stack of book with legs left with Vucanians and UESPA.

Both could be equally accurate. Kirk can be a stack of books with legs while IN class, but "never a boy scout" when OUT of class.

Business in the front and party in the back. You can take the boy out of Iowa but you can't take the Iowa out of the boy.

 

[CorporalClegg]

It wasn't gibberish.

Yes it was.

 

[Ghrakh]

It wasn't gibberish.

Yes it was.

It could be considered gibberish if separated from the created "in-universe". But it would be daft to do that.

 

[The Wormhole]

^Although Sisko's faith may not have been as strong as Kira's, his actions during the later seasons of the series suggest that he believed in the Prophets at some level.

--Sran

Depends on what you mean by "believes in them." Yes, Sisko sought out the Prophets for help and assistance, but he didn't worship them or treat them with religious reverence. Even by the end of the series, the Prophets were still just another alien species to Sisko, not gods.

 

[JWPlatt]

I get tired of "fans" demanding what they want or don't want to see in Star Trek.

Fans are the ultimate baggage of any property.

True artists don't allow popularity to define their work. But I can't find any of it to show you.