Badda-bing Badda-bang--Well done!

[IntrepidMan]

^I admit it was a little jarring at first to hear Sisko talk about racism, because in the Star Trek universe humans have moved so far beyond that. But I stand by my belief that, given the fact that Sisko is black, and given the fact that Vic's program takes place in the U.S. in the 1960s, some mention of racism had to be made. Because the fact is racism really did exist back then, and black people like Sisko really would have had problems entering Vic's casino. So I think the writers had to acknowledge that, if only briefly.

As for the fact that Vic, like the Doctor, is a sentient being (and he is certainly depicted as such)--I have to say I have a problem with that whole concept in Star Trek. Because it just seems really cruel to me to create a being like that and then confine it to sickbay or the holodeck and force it into oblivion every time you shut it off. And I would think that the other characters on the shows would try to be so much more accommodating, given that these holograms do display characteristics of sentient beings. Yes, you have the folks on Voyager giving the Doctor more freedom and Nog leaving Vic's program on permanently, but what took them so long? And you still have characters like Worf saying Vic's isn't a real person and then there's the whole trial with the Doctor about whether he is really sentient. Because it seems so obvious to me that he is.

Anyway I agree with you that the writers didn't know what they were doing and didn't realize the implications of making holograms sentient.

 

[BennyRussel]

I could see that for someone in the 20th/early 21st century--but we are 300 years beyond that, in Trek. But to me, the biggest issue is that Vic is not a white human male any more than the Doctor is. He may have been programmed with a certain appearance and to have a certain library of sayings to draw on, but he is not human and not a party to anything that ever happened on Earth.

The fact that he is a sentient and non-human alien makes Sisko an attempted accessory to murder. For Sisko to be willing to ignore the evidence of Vic's status as a sentient life form, and to allow him to die, over an issue of race...maybe the writers didn't think about what they were doing--and it's especially poor if they didn't pay attention to what the VOY staff were doing with the Doctor, who, by the way, is fighting for his rights to be recognized as a sentient being (something Sisko ought to empathize with if he's so concerned about fairness and anti-discrimination!), but it comes off as a sick form of revenge and it really lowers Sisko.

As for why Sisko should've talked to Vic...while Vic might've had a hunch, it's cowardly of Sisko to not sit down and talk to this intelligent being that--let me remind you--he was ready to kill, and acknowledge him as a fellow sentient who deserves to be treated with dignity.

Exactly when was Sisko ready to kill Vic? His officers were talking about Vic while on duty in Ops and he asked them when they were planning on getting back to work. That's hardly a murderous act.

Sisko was never even upset at Vic. He was upset at the romanticism that everyone was attaching to a general time in history that he had a keen interest in (note his extensive African art collection and his knowledge of the Bell Riots). He knew there was a dark side to that part of Earth's history and it bothered him.

He was upset and DID talk about it. With a live human being - Kassidy. He got it off his chest, listened to what she had to say and decided to accept Vic's program for what is was - an escape from the war and a place where he could bond with his crew/friends. He saw that it meant a lot to them and he joined in.

It's not like he ordered the Vic program shut down or accused everyone else on the station of being racist. He simply had an issue with it, thought about it and decided to move on.

The idea that it is ancient history and he should get over it doesn't fly with me. We have people killing each other over someone who may or may not have been killed on a cross 2,000 years ago and also over a book that may have been written in a cave 1,400 years ago. Don't tell me people don't have strong feelings about things that happened long ago.

 

[You_Will_Fail]

Sisko's bit about the racism seemed really out of place in the episode and seems like something Avery Brooks asked for.

Don't get me wrong, I like the episode, but that whole scene sticks like a sore thumb. If it was the writer trying to bring it up like an "issue piece", it is totally misused in a comedic romp.

Uh I know, and "Far Beyond the Stars"...can't watch it without puking.

 

[Danny99]

If you want to do a racism bit, there's got to be a better way to do it. Sisko brings it up, chats with Kassidy, and then drops it and goes along with the plan. It isn't really resolved in any matter besides her saying "Oh, it's the holosuite." If you're going to do it, a decision I still don't like, give it a resolution and take a stand.

 

[IntrepidMan]

^But it is resolved, isn't it? Like you say, he talks it over with Kassidy, gets what he needs to say off his chest, listens to what she has to say, and in the end decides to join the team. The last scene where he's enjoying himself and singing with Vic--that seems to suggest that things are pretty much resolved.

What more is there to say? I don't think the writers wrote this episode intending to talk a lot about racism. It's not another "Far Beyond the Stars." They had to say something because, as I've said, the program is set in the 1960s, when racism was prevalent. Beyond Sisko's brief discussion with Kassidy, nothing else is really necessary.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Sisko may not have ordered the program shut down, but refusing to help Vic and trying to keep others from doing so provided a way to kill Vic without getting his hands dirty.

As far as the African art collection and the knowledge of the Bell Riots--nothing about those ever struck me as being about a 20th-century racial grudge. There are thousands of years of African history to be honored by the art Sisko kept. Those were very timeless works that could've been a thousand years old or they could've even been contemporary art done in the traditional style. I don't think "1960's Earth" when I see that. I think of a far broader history than that. As far as the Bell Riots, where is it ever stated that was a race riot? Gabriel Bell happened to be black, but as far as I could tell, the injustices being committed in those internment camps respected no racial boundaries. That was portrayed as class warfare, not a race riot.

Basically, race never got into it until "Far Beyond the Stars," and it was a far stronger statement that way--no one gave a damn about anything else except for the fact that Sisko is, hands down, the most competent Starfleet captain we've ever seen on the show, and the only one I would ever follow into combat. "Far Beyond the Stars" was OK because as someone else mentioned, it addressed the issue seriously and did it without ruining the 24th century.

IntrepidMan--I agree there's a cruelty element in confining beings like the Doctor and Vic in what amounts to tiny cages, and even controlling when they're allowed to be conscious and when they're not. VOY did get into that, and that's what makes it particularly galling how Vic was treated on DS9--were the DS9 writers not paying attention?

The Mark I holograms were actually sent to the mines as slaves--pretty horrifying stuff, when you think about it. I mean, holy shit. They couldn't even deactivate them--no, they had to make them suffer! As the Doctor later put it, "Sorry, it's just frustrating to hear that I have no more legal standings than a replicator." Hmm...that remind you of anything?

While that episode hadn't happened yet, in 2375, by that time the VOY writers had made it very clear that the Doctor was a person. So to BennyRussel, no, talking to Kasidy was not enough. He should have had to deal with Vic, not as an aberrant toy, but as an alien person, and had the balls to talk it out sentient to sentient.

 

[heavylids]

I think the racism issue with the program is completely valid. You can't ignore the past. It's like ignoring the millions that were murdered because of Christianity. Of course, it doesn't necessarily reflect on the nature of Christanity today, but you can't ignore the past.

 

[IntrepidMan]

I think it's also worth pointing out that the writers made a main castmember not like Vic because some of the viewers at the time didn't like Vic, for the reasons discussed above. Basically the fans thought the writers had no business making holograms sentient because it just opens a can of worms in terms of morality. So the idea was that if Vic can win over Sisko, he can win over anyone--including disgruntled viewers.

I think maybe the race issue has gotten overblown. It's not the main point of the episode at all nor should it be. It's really just a convenient explanation for why Sisko initially does not like Vic or his program.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think the racism issue with the program is completely valid. You can't ignore the past. It's like ignoring the millions that were murdered because of Christianity. Of course, it doesn't necessarily reflect on the nature of Christanity today, but you can't ignore the past.

However, no one has a right to be angry at me because of the possibility my ancestors committed atrocities. If I myself am disrespectful or hateful, if I attempt to justify it "in the name of God," then I deserve to be punished for my own actions and decisions. I will have brought it upon myself. But there is no way I will accept discrimination (and I am not putting the word "reverse" in there, because discrimination is discrimination and is equally bad regardless of who does it to whom) because of crimes committed by my forefathers. That is its own kind of injustice.

The inability to stop punishing people for the crimes of their ancestors (which I might mention became illegal on Earth prior even to the Third World War, in the Star Trek universe) also leads to millions of murders in this world. Until people can learn to quit pointing the finger at each other and quit demanding retribution for this and that in an endless cycle from one group to the other to the other, we are never going to see the real end of racism, sexism, or any other -ism.

Would Ziyal, for instance, have deserved to be punished because her father was a racist, murdering asshole? No, Ziyal had her own soul, made her own decisions, and was responsible for her behavior and no one else's. We know she was extremely, extremely idealistic and often couldn't see the bad side of anyone. But she didn't deserve punishment because of that.

In Vic's case, he was essentially being punished by Sisko for crimes committed by people who weren't even his ancestors--not even his species. Nobody has ever told me what Vic himself did to deserve that. He, as an alien, has no stake in a human conflict. Maybe Sisko could fire off an angry e-mail to Felix, if he had to vent somewhere, but the hard fact is that Vic went way beyond what Felix ever envisioned or programmed, and became a sentient being with the ability to have feelings.

I think the right way to deal with it would have been for Sisko to have a talk with Vic. To ask him how he felt about it. I think that had the writers been imaginative enough, they could've given Vic an answer that would have addressed the issue and also helped him to see that he took it too far. Doing this to a human would've been wrong--doing it to an alien was just absurd. I would've liked to see that absurdity exposed.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It also might have been slight nod to TNG, where between time travel and holodeck adventures in those times, things like this were usually ignored.

So no wonder Mr. Behr wanted to make sure that the wrong message wasn't being sent. People are capable of downplaying traumatic events from the past.

It was fun for some to relive those times, but there was a real history behind them, and it wasn't always fun and games for certain people.

All Sisko needed to know was that this was happening in the early 60's, not a pleasant time at all especially from his futuristic viewpoint.

I think the right way to deal with it would have been for Sisko to have a talk with Vic. To ask him how he felt about it.

Fair enough. And unless it was really accurate recreation of an early 60's casino, whoever made the thing, seemed to have weeded out the really bad stuff from the program.

 

[Deckerd]

I think the racism issue with the program is completely valid. You can't ignore the past. It's like ignoring the millions that were murdered because of Christianity. Of course, it doesn't necessarily reflect on the nature of Christanity today, but you can't ignore the past.

Far beyond the stars dealt with the whole subject in a much more adult way. The racism element was just as asinine as the rest of the casino episode. You didn't hear any of the female crew whining about the rampant misogyny in the zeitgeist of Vic's place.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

I think the right way to deal with it would have been for Sisko to have a talk with Vic. To ask him how he felt about it.

Fair enough. And unless it was really accurate recreation of an early 60's casino, whoever made the thing, seemed to have weeded out the really bad stuff from the program.

Yeah...Vic seems to suggest that Felix was like him--just wanting people to have fun, and probably not a very "political" person. All we know about Felix is his name, which gives us almost nothing to go by--all we really know is that he's male and probably at least partially human. (And we don't even know that he has human ancestry. He could be adopted, after all!) But it never looked like Felix was going for accuracy in any part of that program.

The thing about Vic is that he demonstrated the ability to reach into other parts of DS9's computer, which Felix probably wasn't banking on when he wrote the program. That makes me think that either Vic was aware of what the real 1960s were like all along, or that he could instantaneously pull the information as soon as Sisko approached him and raised the issue. Either way, Vic would've been capable of having an informed conversation with Sisko about it, which given that he was sentient, would have been the appropriate way to handle it.

 

[BennyRussel]

However, no one has a right to be angry at me because of the possibility my ancestors committed atrocities.

Agreed 100%.

Ghemor I think you are attributing a hatred of Vic that Sisko did not have.

He said specifically that his annoyance at the whole affair was "Not about Vic Fontaine" it was about "Las Vegas 1962. In 1962, Black people weren't very welcome there."

Then Kassidy says that Vic's is not a historically accurate representation 1962 Vegas, but it shows us the way things could have been. She then goes on to say that the only limitations they live under now are the ones they impose on themselves - which is another way of telling Sisko that he needs to get past it.

Kassidy understood the difference between "putting the past behind you" and "forgetting the past."

Sisko never blamed Vic for anyone else's misdeeds. He just felt like going to the casino would have been like forgetting the past. Kassidy helped him see things in a different light.

In any case, it wasn't the core of the episode, but I think it was a well-written scene.

BTW, please no one kill me if I got the quotes above wrong. I am writing from memory.

And on the other topic - I agree that adding sentient holograms to the shows was a bad idea. It just raises too many extra issues. I wonder if, at a time of evacuation, someone would be sent back to retrieve Vic's program, since he was a "human" hologram and as such, a Federation citizen to be rescued.

 

[MHT1138]

Kassidy even says that Vic's program is not how it really was, but how it should have been.

Edit:
Benny you beat me to it, and said it better

 

[Set Harth]

It's like ignoring the millions that were murdered because of Christianity. Of course, it doesn't necessarily reflect on the nature of Christanity today

It's much the same, it's just that today's Christians use slightly different methods.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Contrary to what some believe, including some Christians, there isn't any justification for what I think of as the "Jerks for Jesus" movement. Some of us actually believe in speaking out against such cruelty.