Bad Guys. Keeping the Mystery

[stardream]

This is an off shoot of the Conspiracy Thread regarding the Borg.

Some fans say the Borg was 'defanged' and should have been kept as the unstoppable force that it was in Q Who. Our heroes would escape them either by temporary methods that would work one time or by sheer dumb luck. The Borg would come back later as the same Unstoppable Force. Once again a new method or sheer dumb luck. Our heroes would learn nothing about them. They would forever remain a mystery. Any further knowledge of them would 'ruin' them.


I understand that up to a point but the thing is...the good guys have got to learn more about the bad guys eventually. To keep the bad guys 'static' would get boring after a while and make the heroes really really stupid. Simply having 'knowledge' isn't 'defanging' them imo. Its just part of the natural process.

Knowing more about the bad guys (and I'm using the Borg as an example) doesn't make them any less dangerous. A poisonous snake is still dangerous even if I know how its toxin works and how to stay out of its way.

I'm not sure what it is that others wanted when they claim the Borg was 'dumbed down'. Did you want them remain the same as they were when the Enterprise first encountered them? No change, no growth...nothing? And why?

 

[Terok Nor]

I, Borg is a great episode but it took away the sense of terror the Borg had in Q Who and The Best Of Both Worlds. Descent really didn't add anything to the Borg since those drones were individuals. First Contact redisgned the Borg making them scarier and a big threat once again but I know a lot of people didn't like the idea of the Queen. Then Voyager got their hands on them and overused them.

The Borg worked best in moderation. Scorpion and Dark Frontier should have been it as far as the Borg being a major foe for Voyager. Obviously with a former drone as a main character from Season 4 onwards the Borg had to pop up from time to time but I could have lived without episodes like Unimatrix Zero, Endgame and the ones with the Borg children. That's without mentioning all the cameo appearances of the Borg throughout the series.

 

[T'Girl]

A poisonous snake is still dangerous even if I know how its toxin works and how to stay out of its way.

A poisonous snake does become less dangerous once you understand it, it's reach, it's habits, it's preferred hiding places.

It was the same with the Borg. On Voyager the Borg continued to become less dangerious the more the crew learned about them, to the point they felt confident enought to (almost) routinely board the Borg's ships.

It was Picard's knowledge of the Borg cube's "sweet spot" that allow the fleet's combined firepower to destroy it.

The Borg became merely a strong opponent, nothing more, the mystery was gone.

 

[svenden]

^ I agree with Terok Nor. I think TNG and First Contact, all in all, did a great job of exploring the Borg without lessening their threat level. But Voyager so overused them, that they almost became a joke. The mere idea that a lost, lonely starship of questionable strength could continually and repeatedly outwit the Borg in their own backyard only served to make the Borg seem pretty weak and, frankly, stupid.

Using the Borg as an action/adventure villain got very tiresome for me. From a storytelling perspective, the loss of humanity aspect was always the more compelling aspect. It's why Locutus/Picard, Hugh, Seven, and the Borg children are all so memorable.

 

[stardream]

I can understand feeling frustrated about the overuse of the Borg. I could have easily done without Unimatrix Zero.

 

[Shawnster]

A poisonous snake is still dangerous even if I know how its toxin works and how to stay out of its way.

A poisonous snake does become less dangerous once you understand it, it's reach, it's habits, it's preferred hiding places.

It was the same with the Borg. On Voyager the Borg continued to become less dangerious the more the crew learned about them, to the point they felt confident enought to (almost) routinely board the Borg's ships.

It was Picard's knowledge of the Borg cube's "sweet spot" that allow the fleet's combined firepower to destroy it.

The Borg became merely a strong opponent, nothing more, the mystery was gone.

This.

In summary, if you want to keep your villain scary and mysterious, then don't use them too often. Once, twice, three times a lady .. er... a season or ever.

DS9 did not use the Borg except in flashback during the first episode. We all knew Voyager would encounter the Borg when we heard they were thrown into the DQ. That didn't mean they had to use them as much as they did. They could have added a sexy new female cast member without making her a Borg.

And the Borg needn't be the villain in Star Trek VIII. Or use them in the movie and don't mention them beyond Scorpion on Voyager.

And definitely don't use them on ENT.

 

[Ethros]

I remember when it was announced on here that there would be a Borg episode of ENT. After how overused they were on VOY we were all like "seriously???!" Nevermind whatever the continuity issues would be. It did really seem like B&B had already ran out of ideas for ENT.

But in the end to be fair, Regeneration is probably one of the best episodes of Season 2. Ha, maybe that's not saying much when half of s2 is so lame, but still, it's a great episode IMO.



But yeah, the Borg children episode/s (Collective, Childs Play etc) and Unimatrix Zero we could have done without.

That awful bit in Unimatrix Zero pt.1 when the Borg Queen says "we'll see you soon Harry." Which literally meant NOTHING and was utterly meaningless, never developed on. Oooh so the Borg now just make random nonsensical threats to shake people up? *shakes head* Just poor writing.

 

[Nightdiamond]

It looks like the Borg got dragged down along with the franchise fatigue.
The super Borg drone, Borg children, Borg Queen and her complex, it was too much and way overdone.

A similar thing happened with the Q in Voyager.

The Unimatrix Zero and ex Borg stuff was a peek into the Borg that a lot fans really weren't interested in seeing.

They even had an episode where Janeway figured a way to prevent being assimilated-- which already kills the Borg as a dangerous enemy.

In Q Who the Borg was about as scary as they could ever get-- that is how to play a villain.

 

[tharpdevenport]

I'm not sure what it is that others wanted when they claim the Borg was 'dumbed down'. Did you want them remain the same as they were when the Enterprise first encountered them? No change, no growth...nothing? And why?

It's not necessarily that we wanted them the same as originally seen -- after all, they are always assimilating and changign technology all the time -- but rather that they were heavily revamped and not in positive ways.

The Borg had something of a mystic to them. By the time Voyager was over, they were buried in Borg technobabble and not in a good way.

The Borg were intended as a hive mind, like a swarm of bees (only without a queen, which really wasn't necessary here), but I've read at IMDb the writers were having trouble with it and another source saying the studio wanted a central bad guy, so the Queen was created, thus eliminating the swarming unstoppable force and brining it down to just another central baddie.

The reason for the Borg was unclear but later came down to some absurd notion of perfection which could be reached with an atom or something like that. Their whole driving premise just became stupid.

Among some reasons.


The Borg aren't a typical species -- they aren't even one period, depending on which Trek you go with -- they don't grow as people, just absorb biological and technological distinctiveness to their own.


They became more of a self parody like some green-lite haunted house and had this bizarre obsession with the human race (that brought us an equally bizarre plot for the FC movie). And they were just overused and became boring and even annoying. Not a single good story line, in regards to the Borg collective, was ever created after TNG.

 

[suarezguy]

You can learn about an enemy without them necessarily becoming less dangerous but the enemy being defeated many times definitely does lessen them, especially if they start out unbeatable; stalemates can actually make for good drama, sometimes better than the villains getting defeated, surprised that couldn't have happened with the Borg more often.

In fact, in contrast to the gradual weakening of the Borg I think the original series gave a good deal of new development to the Klingons and made them more interesting in pretty much every episode they appeared in.

 

[TheSubCommander]

A poisonous snake is still dangerous even if I know how its toxin works and how to stay out of its way.

A poisonous snake does become less dangerous once you understand it, it's reach, it's habits, it's preferred hiding places.

It was the same with the Borg. On Voyager the Borg continued to become less dangerious the more the crew learned about them, to the point they felt confident enought to (almost) routinely board the Borg's ships.

It was Picard's knowledge of the Borg cube's "sweet spot" that allow the fleet's combined firepower to destroy it.

The Borg became merely a strong opponent, nothing more, the mystery was gone.

+1
Well said!

I, Borg is a great episode but it took away the sense of terror the Borg had in Q Who and The Best Of Both Worlds. Descent really didn't add anything to the Borg since those drones were individuals. First Contact redisgned the Borg making them scarier and a big threat once again but I know a lot of people didn't like the idea of the Queen. Then Voyager got their hands on them and overused them.

The Borg worked best in moderation. Scorpion and Dark Frontier should have been it as far as the Borg being a major foe for Voyager. Obviously with a former drone as a main character from Season 4 onwards the Borg had to pop up from time to time but I could have lived without episodes like Unimatrix Zero, Endgame and the ones with the Borg children. That's without mentioning all the cameo appearances of the Borg throughout the series.

+1
I also agree with this!

 

[Tosk]

Mystery is most certainly not needed to keep an enemy interesting. As others have said, it wasn't learning more about the Borg that watered them down.

 

[The Wormhole]

You know, looking back, the claim Voyager was always defeating the Borg is a bit exaggerated. A lot of the time they got lucky through extenuating circumstances. In fact, looking over Voyager's Borg appearances:

Unity was actually about former drones liberated after their ship took on severe damage from an unknown source.

Scorpion has the Collective getting its ass kicked by a more powerful enemy.

Drone has a single sphere being overpowered by a Borg drone created from 29th century technology.

Dark Frontier might stretch things a little, with destruction of a Borg ship at the beginning (though likely with Seven's assistance) a mission to infiltrate another Borg ship and steal critical engine components (through intel provided by wreckage of the other ship), and another mission to infiltrate the Queen's flagship, retrieve a high profile prisoner, which ultimately ends in the destruction of the Queen's ship. It's not all implausible, but it is stretching things, certainly.

Collective is about a damaged Borg ship under the control of children, so no surprise the Voyager crew won this.

Child's Play just involves Voyager escaping a ship which likely had little interest in them and higher priorities.

Unimatrix Zero might be one episode where the Borg are presented as a lot weaker than they should be. But to be fair, this is just a really crappy episode in general.

Endgame involves assistance from the future.

 

[svenden]

They... had this bizarre obsession with the human race...

That's a great point. I generally think First Contact was one of the best Star Trek movies. But the impetus for the movie - that the Borg would got to the trouble to go back in time to erase humanity (because apparently they can't beat them in the 24th Century) - was entirely out of character for them.

Perhaps its the more emotional, vindictive tone that the Borg took, starting with the introduction of the Queen in FC, and continuing with many of the Voyager encounters, that really ruined them as a menacing villain.

Not a single good story line, in regards to the Borg collective, was ever created after TNG.

I would disagree with this, though. As I've said before, when the Borg are used as a means of exploring humanity, or the loss and reclamation of humanity, I think it produces good stories. I could nitpick some of the choices in Seven's journey, but on the whole I enjoyed her character arc. I actually found Icheb to be even more interesting. With Seven and Hugh and Picard, they were all adult age and therefore expected to act like adults. Icheb was still an adolescent, and I thought the parallels of growing up and rediscovering one's individuality at the same time was a very interesting character study.

But as villains, I agree with the, um, collective here, that they've been far too watered down. I just roll my eyes at the idea of another 'Borg encounter.'

 

[stardream]

You know, looking back, the claim Voyager was always defeating the Borg is a bit exaggerated. A lot of the time they got lucky through extenuating circumstances. In fact, looking over Voyager's Borg appearances:

Unity was actually about former drones liberated after their ship took on severe damage from an unknown source.

Scorpion has the Collective getting its ass kicked by a more powerful enemy.

Drone has a single sphere being overpowered by a Borg drone created from 29th century technology.

Dark Frontier might stretch things a little, with destruction of a Borg ship at the beginning (though likely with Seven's assistance) a mission to infiltrate another Borg ship and steal critical engine components (through intel provided by wreckage of the other ship), and another mission to infiltrate the Queen's flagship, retrieve a high profile prisoner, which ultimately ends in the destruction of the Queen's ship. It's not all implausible, but it is stretching things, certainly.

Collective is about a damaged Borg ship under the control of children, so no surprise the Voyager crew won this.

Child's Play just involves Voyager escaping a ship which likely had little interest in them and higher priorities.

Unimatrix Zero might be one episode where the Borg are presented as a lot weaker than they should be. But to be fair, this is just a really crappy episode in general.

Endgame involves assistance from the future.

For whatever reason I don't think of Unity, Collective and Child's Play as 'Borg' Episodes. (I'm going to have to re-watch Drone). Yes there are Borg involved but that's not what these stories are 'about' . The Borg are more or less supporting players in the story.

 

[Anwar]

The problem with the Borg is that they just aren't that interesting in the first place. They're basically just space zombies with little to no depth beyond that. So once you get past that (which is what happens when they keep showing up) then there's not much else to keep you interested.

TNG got us interested by really only ever having the TNG crew fight the Collective once in TNG, with other appearances having some explanation of how it wasn't really the Collective they were fighting.

I don't know if there really was any way for Voyager to use the Borg in a way that wouldn't get complaints, to be honest. Scorpion was perhaps the best way but even that story gets criticized to Hell and back.

 

[eyeresist]

But in the end to be fair, Regeneration is probably one of the best episodes of Season 2. Ha, maybe that's not saying much when half of s2 is so lame, but still, it's a great episode IMO.

And in reference to the thread topic, Regeneration did restore the Borg as a mysterious threat, at least for that ep. The only really iffy bit is the doctor developing a cure for the nanoprobes, but that was an interesting addition to the lore, and introduced a nice bit of suspense, like waiting for someone to turn into a werewolf.

As for use of the Borg in the rest of the franchise, there is no way to keep using them without having them seem less than all-powerful. The alternative is that the Borg win, and then Star Trek is over.

You can't really compare the Borg to the Klingons. The Borg were set up as an unstoppable force devoid of personality, so writers couldn't develop characters and relationships for them in the way they did with other species. Basically, the Borg are space zombies. Really cool space zombies.

 

[T'Girl]

Basically, the Borg are space zombies.

I view (imho) the Borg not as space zombies, but as slaves, with everything that goes along with that word.

 

[eyeresist]

^ That is another way to look at it, sure. It's a sci-fi form of possession, where a remote consciousness drives your body around while you're in it. But if a horde of them is coming for you, it probably feels about the same.