Babylon 5

[Steve Roby]

I'm due to revisit Crusade soon, now that I have some of the books about it, but from what I recall, after it was cancelled, JMS said the whole first season was basically a bait and switch. We're led to think it's about the search for the cure to the Drakh plague but that would be resolved and then we'd find out what the show was really about. If I remember that correctly, it was a pretty risky thing to do. B5 wasn't such a popular property that JMS could safely assume that an audience would get hooked enough by Crusade's original premise to stick around for something bigger that they didn't know was coming. That could have been an issue regardless of network interference.

 

[David cgc]

The "bait-and-switch" aspect was essentially because of the network interference. TNT insisted on no returning characters from B5, minimal tie-ins to the existing lore, an overarching "quest" structure to give the show an easily-understandable goal, so JMS put those all in, with the intention of still eventually steering the ship into what he wanted to do in the first place. There probably still would've been a "red herring" element to the first season, just like there was to Babylon 5, which from all appearances was an episodic "Casablanca in space," relatively low-key sci-fi story, but it wouldn't have been quite so drastic with an entire series-long mission that was going to be utterly disposed of.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Shadows will not be pleased.

Though, I guess that does beg a discussion point, though I think I know how this will go...do folks think the Shadows had any particular regard for Morden, or was he, in the end, just a disposable tool for them? They seemed to at least care enough to heal him after the Z'ha'boom, but then, if that was trivial and finding a new 'ambassador' would have been a hassle, then maybe that was more a matter of convenience than anything else.

If we thought the Vorlons were the good guys, but they turned out to be assholes, then surely the assholes we thought were bad guys all along, probably were not?

Every genocide committed by the Shadows, every megadeath they claim responsibility, was for the enbetterment of the galaxy at large, and all species alike.

Their benevolence is blood soaked, but it is benevolence, so they are here to help, because they love us.

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

If we thought the Vorlons were the good guys, but they turned out to be assholes, then surely the assholes we thought were bad guys all along, probably were not?

Every genocide committed by the Shadows, every megadeath they claim responsibility, was for the enbetterment of the galaxy at large, and all species alike.

Their benevolence is blood soaked, but it is benevolence, so they are here to help, because they love us.

Or they can both suck in different ways.

 

[Farscape One]

The Vorlons and Shadows were both villains for one simple reason... they used ALL of the younger races as pawns in their personal idealogical chess game.

They had no real regard for any of them outside of how the younger races can advance their ideaology.

 

[DonIago]

I think some viewers are fooled by the fact that Kosh appears to be (increasingly) benevolent as the series progresses, and perhaps even (unconsciously?) buy into the fact that the Vorlons take on angelic portrayals. Of course, the Shadows looking 'demonic' by comparison is part of it as well.

As it turns out, Ulkesh is far more more representative of the Vorlon perspective in general.

I still think Kosh reaching into G'kar's mind may have been his most selfless act.

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

I think some viewers are fooled by the fact that Kosh appears to be (increasingly) benevolent as the series progresses, and perhaps even (unconsciously?) buy into the fact that the Vorlons take on angelic portrayals. Of course, the Shadows looking 'demonic' by comparison is part of it as well.

As it turns out, Ulkesh is far more more representative of the Vorlon perspective in general.

I still think Kosh reaching into G'kar's mind may have been his most selfless act.

I think Kosh is more of an exception or outlier from his species.

 

[Farscape One]

Let's also not forget that the Vorlons appear like angels because of their genetic interference with the various races... it's exactly why there are so many with telepaths.

I don't see many heroes or good guys forcing you into seeing them as angels.

 

[David cgc]

^I think those were two different things when Morden brought it up. The genetic manipulation was just telepaths, the appearance is an active telepathic illusion the Vorlon performs willfully (which is why Kosh was exhausted after rescuing Sheridan, and Ulkesh just presented as a jellyfish, which is probably closer to their "true" form, in as much as they have one). The point still holds, though; if the Vorlons were confident in how they came across, they'd just rely on people coming to associate glowing jellyfish with goodness and divinity rather than trying to present themselves as familiar, but flattering (same with Kosh's habit of appearing to people as their fathers).

 

[Farscape One]

^I think those were two different things when Morden brought it up. The genetic manipulation was just telepaths, the appearance is an active telepathic illusion the Vorlon performs willfully (which is why Kosh was exhausted after rescuing Sheridan, and Ulkesh just presented as a jellyfish, which is probably closer to their "true" form, in as much as they have one). The point still holds, though; if the Vorlons were confident in how they came across, they'd just rely on people coming to associate glowing jellyfish with goodness and divinity rather than trying to present themselves as familiar, but flattering (same with Kosh's habit of appearing to people as their fathers).

You're right. Kosh (and the two Vorlons next to 'Valen') appearing as angels was a willed action in that moment. (It also explains why Londo saw nothing when everyone else saw an angel in "THE FALL OF NIGHT"... he was already touched by the Shadows, and Kosh knew it.) The telepath genetic manipulation was a separate thing.

My mistake. Thanks for remembering!

 

[Johnny Rico]

"If people were asking if I'm back, then yes, I'm thinking I'm back." -- John Wick

Yes, after about a 20 year hiatus, the OG Johnny Rico is back on Trek BBS to chew bubblegum and kick ass...except I'm all outta bubble gum.

No, but seriously...with Babylon 5 excitement ramping up with the recent release of the animated movie and the Complete Original Series coming out on Blu-ray in December, I'm excited to revisit this series in December. I've had the DVDs of the complete collection (series and TV movies) for about 20 years now. But only watched them once thru I believe, when I still had a 480i CRT. But as we all know those DVDs look like ASS on an HD or 4K TV set. So after checking out some screen comparisons between the old SD copies with the Remastered images, I gotta say that I'm really looking forward in revisiting this series after over 15 years.

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

Yes, after about a 20 year hiatus, the OG Johnny Rico is back on Trek BBS to chew bubblegum and kick ass...except I'm all outta bubble gum.

Welcome Back!

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Welcome back, Johnny Rico! Glad to see you back!

 

[Johnny Rico]

Wait, so we aren't getting a rebooted series anymore? It's animated movies now?

no, we are, but it's not gonna be on the CW anymore. Probably gonna be on MAX I believe. And it'll be live-action.

 

[Johnny Rico]

Welcome back, Johnny Rico! Glad to see you back!

Thanks...I wasn't even sure this site still existed since BBs boards are a bit obsolete with things such as Discord being around now. And while I've actually enjoyed the Kurtzman era of Trek (Discovery, SNW, Picard) I just haven't felt the need to talk about them. And as for Disney+ Star Wars, I didn't even think about it that there might be a place for discussion about it here. I usually just post on YouTube videos. Actually, when you think about it, a lot has changed since I left this site.

 

[Johnny Rico]

Amazon now has the complete B5 Blu-ray set listed for $100.

Yeah, that's a pretty reasonable price actually for a remastered series of this nature.

 

[DonIago]

I think Kosh is more of an exception or outlier from his species.

Kosh is the Londo Mollari of the Vorlons? I kind of like that idea.

 

[Chilli]

Finally got to seeing The Road Home, and .. well. It gave me a warm and fuzzy feeling to return to the B5 universe, however briefly, but I didn't actually feel like it added overly much to the epos.

I have the same issue here as I have with all later B5 installments: JMS basically told the story he set out to tell, quite wonderfully (in spite of all the roadblocks he had to swerve around in earlier seasons, S4 feeling incredibly rushed, and S5 feeling like he'd run out of material - we know the behind-the-scenes reasons there). Whenever we go back to the B5 universe, I get the sense of JMS on some level struggling with the fact.

I think for me to get truly excited about future B5 projects, it'd have to be something coherent and detached from the original story (a la Crusade), or a complete reboot in which JMS sets out to tell the story anew (or tell a new story, depending on how he does it). On that front I'm actually glad The Road Home was more warmly received in general than it was by me; I'd guess that helps make and keep that likely!

Minor points:

Spoiler

* I found it narratively perplexing that the whole movie follows the version of Sheridan we know ... but once the main issue is resolved, the focus stays on an alternate timeline with characters we essentially don't know, and what becomes of our Sheridan ... well, who knows, he's zapped off into the distance.

* I found the Shadow action sequences rather ... in opposition to how and why I found the Shadows so eerie back in the day. They were effective exactly because they were (in the) Shadows. You'd hear them chirping next to Morden, you'd know they're there ready to rip you apart, but ... well. It's like with the shark in Jaws; it stopped being terrifying when we saw it. Likewise having Shadows essentially demoted to zerglings didn't jive with their strength.

* Something I especially liked was Londo and Ivanova getting such a nice and long scene together - something so weirdly lacking in the original show, as frequently noted by the actors. I found that whole scene one of the more effective ones.

 

[KamenRiderBlade]

What about finishing up B5 Crusade via Animated series?

 

[Jan]

What about finishing up B5 Crusade via Animated series?

JMS said this recently when asked;

J. Michael Straczynski
@straczynski
May 18
I've answered the question hundreds of times: there's nothing I can do with Crusade; I don't own it or have the rights to do it in other media, there was only half a season so it's largely unknown, and nobody including WB is lining up to finance "closure." It's out of my hands.