Babylon 5
- Thread starter Kail
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I don't want to get too deep into this topic for risk of derailing; but I'd say that pretty much everything post season 2 showed clear signs of "I don't know, I thought we'd be cancelled by now!"
As much as I enjoyed the New Caprica arc (the escape sequence was nuts for it's time) it's also when the lack of pre-planning began to become very obvious (mostly the whole "Fat Apollo" thing). Personally I find it hard to invest in an ongoing mystery when the storytellers are quite obviously just making shit up as they go with no coherent idea as to how it's all going to fit together. "The Plan" movie was for me the final nail in the coffin since it just laid the whole thing bare in all it's janky, half-baked glory.
It's honestly made any attempt by me to re-watch the show in later years feel hollow and pointless. Compared to B5 where you can see the seeds being planted (even when the "trapdoors" are employed to redirect a subplot), with BSG all I could see was . Seriously, I've tried to rewatch it three times over the years and every time, I get to the end of season 2, watch 'Razor' get maybe a few episodes into season 3 and just loose all interest.
Despite how much I enjoy the performances, the characters, or how much I respect Ron Moore for being one of the first show-runners since JMS to really engage with the fans on a week-to-week basis...the magic is just gone for me.
And don't get be wrong, I was rooting for 'Caprica' & 'Blood and Chrome' too!
Pretty sure that's not how that works, even if he "wanted" the credit. I mean the union people have a conniption if anyone but a gaffer so much as *thinks* about moving a light. A DOP claiming a directing just because he did the actual work while the guy getting paid was having a sulk? Hell no!
Something to note... with the exception of two-parters, a director does not direct two episodes back to back. "TKO" and "GRAIL", production wise, were directed back to back. And it isn't just B5 where this is the case. I think it's a union thing.
In the US at least, I believe Dr. Who separated it's the episodes into blocks of 3 or 4 episodes, with one person directing all of the episodes in each block.
Quite right, though I think it's 2 episodes instead of 3 or 4. FARSCAPE did a similar thing, I believe.
Shows produced like in Canada like BSG and SUPERNATURAL seem to follow the same pattern as U.S. produced shows, though there seem to be exceptions, like STARGATE SG-1. (In that case, Martin Wood and Peter DeLuise would tend to do 2 episodes back to back in the later seasons and not be a two-parter, though that may simply be because they were also producers for the series.)
Shows produced like in Canada like BSG and SUPERNATURAL seem to follow the same pattern as U.S. produced shows, though there seem to be exceptions, like STARGATE SG-1. (In that case, Martin Wood and Peter DeLuise would tend to do 2 episodes back to back in the later seasons and not be a two-parter, though that may simply be because they were also producers for the series.)
The show's intro literally contains the phrase "they have a plan"...
That aside it's just shoddy storytelling. The kind that results in a whole shite-load of dead-end plots, random plot twists, wildly inconsistent character motivations, muddled world building and empty, discarded mystery boxes.
A lot of which are easy to miss on the first viewing, but on a second they all stick out like so very very many sore thumbs.
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I forgot who said this, but "and they have a plan" was supposedly inserted into the credits without the writers or showrunners knowledge (or something like that). Then the writers first saw that when it aired, and they said "What?? We do??? Um. What??"
(Was that vague enough? It's been YEARS since I read that, so...)
By whom if not the writers or showrunners? The network?I forgot who said this, but "and they have a plan" was supposedly inserted into the credits without the writers or showrunners knowledge (or something like that). Then the writers first saw that when it aired, and they said "What?? We do??? Um. What??"
(Was that vague enough? It's been YEARS since I read that, so...)
Regardless, if they were THAT against it, they could have easily had it pulled from later episodes and subsequent repeats., or just flat out told fans "just ignore that, it not from us!" That they kept it in is tacit approval and an implied obligation to the viewer to follow through on it. Plus of course this doesn't excuse the multiple in-narrative implications that there's an underlying structure to what's going on, and it's not just some very flashy looking soap opera. Plus plus, the made a movie literally called "The Plan", which as previously mentioned, laid bare just how nonsensical it all was. That's not only taking that concept on board, it's doubling down, even after the fact!
It's the same problem I have with shows like 'Lost' where they're touted as being a deep involved narrative and all this random crap actually means something once you have all the pieces...where what's really going on is that they're just tossing things out because it sounds/looks cool and mysterious. There's only so far one can kick that can down the road. A story can't be sustained on the promise of the "mystery box" alone. Eventually you have to let the audience see what's inside it...and if it's been empty the whole time then you've just cheated the audience. A flim flam of a meta narrative.
To swing this back to B5; JMS was careful not to fall into this trap. As someone that cut his teeth writing for shows like 'Murder She Wrote' he understood how mysteries are constructed, how important it is to play fair with the audience, and as a result to accept the risk that some percentage of the audience will figure it out before the big reveal. He even made sure to actually SOLVE one mystery before moving into another, not drag it out or constantly introduce new elements until the whole thing is a convoluted mess. The difference in results are night and day by comparison.
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All I care about is that I enjoyed the show as it was airing and in subsequent rewatches, and that's enough for me. I never really noticed any major issues that were enough to ruin it for me, although I'll admit I don't always look as deep into stuff like this as other people do.
I'll admit, the ending wasn't great, but it wasn't bad enough to ruin the rest of the show for me.
Now, with Lost on the other hand, I was very happy with how that ended. I knew they were never going to answer every question, but they answered enough of the big ones that I was happy.
Okay, here it is from a source other than my failing memory:
https://io9.gizmodo.com/battlestar-galacticas-ronald-d-moore-admits-the-cylons-1796020590
From:
https://io9.gizmodo.com/battlestar-galacticas-ronald-d-moore-admits-the-cylons-1796020590
Right, so not some outside party; an actual senior member of the production. And as detailed above, even giving them the benefit of the doubt; not only did they fail to correct the supposed unintended misconception, they actively sought to reinforce it, which renders this whole line of argument moot.
You enjoyed it. Good for you. Have a cookie! That doesn't impact or alter the validity of the critique in any way shape or form.
Ultimately what this comes down to is the creatives trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want the freedom to go episode to episode like old school Trek, making up whatever story strikes their fancy for that week, but they also want to hook the audience with a heavily serialised narrative. Those two things can totally co-exist (see: B5!) but it only works if you work out at least the basic structure of the meta narrative ahead of time, and stick to it. Having a strong opening and a vague idea for a cool final shot involving Dirk Benedict as god with 'All Along the Watchtower' playing in the background just won't cut it.
And what I talk about structure; I'm referring to dramatic structure; acts. For B5, JMS consciously chose a five act structure favoured by novels (introduction, rising action, complication, climax and denouement) with each of the five seasons seasons serving as one of these functions. That's not to say this is the only way to do it, but as a general rule any story whether it be a sweeping 15 hardback novel epic, or a knock-knock joke, it needs at least three very basic components: beginning (introduction), middle (rising action/complication), and end (climax/denouement).
Indeed most movies almost religiously follow this three act structure, recently tending towards shorter and shorter first acts, seconds acts that take up the bulk of the runtime, ending with a climax, with perfunctory denouements that can be as little as a single shot, or an after credits scene if we're talking blockbusters.
BSG started out OK with a strong introduction, intriguing rising action...then just shits the bed in the middle and spends the rest of the show trying to make a half-way sensical ending. At that point, it doesn't really matter what the ending is, good or bad.
I don't want to get too detailed into illustrating how this worked on B5 since we have an active poster who's still only on season one; but let's just say in very broad terms: imagine if instead of the things that happen in B5's second, third and fourth seasons, we got totally different things that went nowhere, set up nothing, introduced random shit, did a three point turn mid-story to bail out of a dead-ended subplot, then dumped us where we ended up at the last 5 or so episodes or season 4 (and no season 5.) That would be a weird, janky mess, no?
As I've already explained, this is not about being disappointed with endings, it's about the "middles" being objectively poorly constructed from a narrative standpoint. After that it really doesn't matter what ending you tack on the end; whether it's entertaining or not, the whole piece is mechanically broken.
You enjoyed it. Good for you. Have a cookie! That doesn't impact or alter the validity of the critique in any way shape or form.
Ultimately what this comes down to is the creatives trying to have their cake and eat it too. They want the freedom to go episode to episode like old school Trek, making up whatever story strikes their fancy for that week, but they also want to hook the audience with a heavily serialised narrative. Those two things can totally co-exist (see: B5!) but it only works if you work out at least the basic structure of the meta narrative ahead of time, and stick to it. Having a strong opening and a vague idea for a cool final shot involving Dirk Benedict as god with 'All Along the Watchtower' playing in the background just won't cut it.
And what I talk about structure; I'm referring to dramatic structure; acts. For B5, JMS consciously chose a five act structure favoured by novels (introduction, rising action, complication, climax and denouement) with each of the five seasons seasons serving as one of these functions. That's not to say this is the only way to do it, but as a general rule any story whether it be a sweeping 15 hardback novel epic, or a knock-knock joke, it needs at least three very basic components: beginning (introduction), middle (rising action/complication), and end (climax/denouement).
Indeed most movies almost religiously follow this three act structure, recently tending towards shorter and shorter first acts, seconds acts that take up the bulk of the runtime, ending with a climax, with perfunctory denouements that can be as little as a single shot, or an after credits scene if we're talking blockbusters.
BSG started out OK with a strong introduction, intriguing rising action...then just shits the bed in the middle and spends the rest of the show trying to make a half-way sensical ending. At that point, it doesn't really matter what the ending is, good or bad.
I don't want to get too detailed into illustrating how this worked on B5 since we have an active poster who's still only on season one; but let's just say in very broad terms: imagine if instead of the things that happen in B5's second, third and fourth seasons, we got totally different things that went nowhere, set up nothing, introduced random shit, did a three point turn mid-story to bail out of a dead-ended subplot, then dumped us where we ended up at the last 5 or so episodes or season 4 (and no season 5.) That would be a weird, janky mess, no?
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What argument? Who was arguing? I was just trying to remember what I'd heard 15 years ago.
But they did plan things out on BSG! Don’t read so deep into RDM’s modesty and self-deprecation. Back in the day, the official podcast feed had the story-breaking session for season 2.5. They decided the Cylons’ primary philosophical and practical goals when breaking season 1, and explored several times, all the way to the series finale, the steps they were taking to achieve those goals and what the consequences might be. They weren’t bullshitting things out episode-by-episode in isolation like a sci-fi “Naked Came The Stranger.”
I wish there were a word for “a series of steps to achieve a predetermined goal.” It’s not “plan,” because that apparently means “a revelatory pre-planned twist which comprehensively recontextualizes all prior events precisely to the satisfaction of the kind of people who didn’t take season 1, episode 1 seriously when it said from the first line it was exactly the kind of show you’d get in season 4, episode 20.”
I wish there were a word for “a series of steps to achieve a predetermined goal.” It’s not “plan,” because that apparently means “a revelatory pre-planned twist which comprehensively recontextualizes all prior events precisely to the satisfaction of the kind of people who didn’t take season 1, episode 1 seriously when it said from the first line it was exactly the kind of show you’d get in season 4, episode 20.”
Imagine if the first regular episode of B5 was “Mind War,” and then for ten years after the finale, people whined about God turning Sheridan into an Energy Being and taking him into heaven being a cheat. “This is hard sci-fi, with rotating sections, where’d all this energy-being stuff come from? I’be been in denial about telepathy and energy beings during the run of the show, assuming it was a stage-magician’s hoax no matter how implausible that was!”
We actually could compare this to Babylon 5, now that we have the original actually-a-ten-year-plan for the show, and how it relates to what we actually got. WWE is exactly the janky, self-contradictory wing-and-a-prayer mess of a fix-fic being suggested, and no one cares because JMS was canny enough to constantly project total confidence in stuff that he hadn’t written yet to the fan base.
We actually could compare this to Babylon 5, now that we have the original actually-a-ten-year-plan for the show, and how it relates to what we actually got. WWE is exactly the janky, self-contradictory wing-and-a-prayer mess of a fix-fic being suggested, and no one cares because JMS was canny enough to constantly project total confidence in stuff that he hadn’t written yet to the fan base.
The writers and producers of BSG not meticulously laying out exactly how every storyline of the series would ultimately be resolved gets trotted out as this huge 'sin', but the series still ended up answering every major narrative question it posed with the exception of what Starbuck was (which , I would point out, was never a question that the series promised an answer for).
We can argue all day about whether or not the answers that the series provided were satisfactory, but they did provide answers, which makes the question of whether or not they had said answers meticulously thought out a moot one.
Regarding B5, it's a little bit strange to me how often the series gets described as "Hard Sci-Fi" despite being - by admission - heavily inspired by the writings of JRR Tolkien.
We can argue all day about whether or not the answers that the series provided were satisfactory, but they did provide answers, which makes the question of whether or not they had said answers meticulously thought out a moot one.
Regarding B5, it's a little bit strange to me how often the series gets described as "Hard Sci-Fi" despite being - by admission - heavily inspired by the writings of JRR Tolkien.
Oh I agree the story went off the rails after New Caprica, but the episodes after were still focused on the main story except for a couple in the middle.
There's a lot of mooting going on around here.
Bunch of Ents, if you ask me.
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