Babylon 5: The Original Season Four and Five

[JediKnightButler]

[/QUOTE]Following Byron would've been rebound nookie.[/QUOTE]

That would've been one helluva "rebound nookie" even for her IMHO. No, I'm of the opinion that I would've never been able to buy that. I didn't like that section of the story but I I bought Lyta + Byron much better than I would have ever bought Ivanova + Byron.

 

[Candlelight]

The problem with JMS' statement about the first six episodes being standalone is that both S3 and S4 end on a cliffhanger that demands the story continue to frutition. Sheridan being lost at Z'ha'dum and then being captured by Clark. Unless he was just going to let Sheridan sit in the stir for six episodes before returning each time. But then you'd have the other characters dealing with random hijinks on the station while their beloved captain is missing all this time...

They don't necessarily have to be straight up front. A stand alone could've easily fitted in between The Summoning and Falling Towards Apotheosis. Besides, by that stage of the game the term 'stand alone' doesn't necessarily mean completely remove all arc influence; just put it to one side (like a b- or c-story) and have something minor take centre stage for that week.

Something like A View from the Gallery would've worked too.

Granted many fans would've been pissed off but it would stretch out the story telling.

 

[Candlelight]

Whenever Mr Light does these threads it makes me wana do my own.

Yep, will be posted shortly.

 

[DWF]

I really liked season four but season is a bit of a mess for me, but I think part of the reason for that was that JMS was a bit rushed.

 

[Candlelight]

Season 4 (2261)

401 The Hour of the Wolf
402 What Ever Happened to Mr. Garibaldi?
403 The Summoning
404 STAND ALONE
405 Falling Towards Apotheosis
406 ADDITIONAL SHADOW EPISODE
407 The Long Night
408 Into the Fire
409 Epiphanies
410 The Illusion of Truth
411 Atonement
412 Thirdspace
413 Racing Mars
414 Lines of Communication
415 War Dawn (PROPER MINBARI CIVIL WAR BEGINS, MARS AGREES TO HELP SHERIDAN)
416 In the Beginning, Pt 1 (INSTEAD OF LONDO, STORY TOLD BY DELENN IN THE FUTURE)
417 In the Beginning, Pt 2 (AT THE END, WE SEE ALL 5 STATIONS, NOT JUST B1)
418 Casualties of War (GREAT MACHINE DEFENDS B5 FROM CLARK, BUT IS DESTROYED)
419 The Mind’s Eye (PSI CORP HIERARCHY RETREAT FROM EARTH, GO INTO HIDING)
420 Conflicts of Interest
421 Rumors, Bargains and Lies
422 Moments of Transition (CLARK NUKES PROXIMA 3, MINBARI WAR ENDS)

Season 5 (2262)

501 No Surrender, No Retreat (SHERIDAN ON OFFENSIVE, DELENN HELPS REBUILD HOME)
502 The Exercise of Vital Powers
503 The Face of the Enemy (GARIBALDI STOLE A VIAL OF THE TELEPATH VIRUS)
504 Intersections in Real Time
505 Between the Darkness and the Light
506 Endgame
507 Rising Star
508 The Very Long Night of Londo Mollari
509 Day of the Dead
510 The Corps is Mother, the Corps is Father (PSI CORP DISSOLVED, BESTER ON THE RUN)
511 A View from the Gallery (DRAHK ATTACK STATION, INSTEAD OF RANDOM ALIENS)
512 The Deconstruction of Falling Stars (EP 100)
513 In the Kingdom of the Blind (START OF TELEPATH WAR, BESTER CAPTURED)
514 A Tragedy of Telepaths (BESTER’S LIFE STORY, THE TRUE HISTORY OF TELEPATHY)
515 Meditations on the Abyss (BESTER’S TRIAL ON B5, TELEPATH VIRUS USED AS WARNING)
516 The Ragged Edge (BESTER SENTENCED, CENTAURI BEGIN ATTACKING SHIPPING LANES)
517 Darkness Ascending (TELEPATH/WHITE STAR BATTLE AT B5, BESTER DIES, WAR ENDS)
518 And All My Dreams, Torn Asunder (CENTAURI ISSUE ESCALATES, ALLIANCE FRACTURES)
519 Movements of Fire and Shadow (ASSAULT ON CENTAURI PRIME BEGINS)
520 The Fall of Centauri Prime (THE CENTAURI SECEDE, ALLIANCE SOLIDIFIES)
521 The Wheel of Fire (BIG GOODBYE EPISODE)
522 Sleeping in Light

 

[Mr Light]

So if the Shadows couldn't defeat the Great Machine, how was Clark going to destroy it?

And of course the inherent problem with the "Telepath War" is how is it going to be a good fight? We know they have shuttles that drive around in hyperspace but Sheridan has White Stars. No contest. The Telepath War wouldn't really be a war at all, really...

 

[Candlelight]

So if the Shadows couldn't defeat the Great Machine, how was Clark going to destroy it?

I have a rough, fan-wankery idea, but that's for another thread.

Besides, the Shadows didn't know about it. It wasn't around at the time of the last Shadow war. If they did, and knew of it's abilities, they would've taken it out to prevent Babylon 4 from ever happening.

And of course the inherent problem with the "Telepath War" is how is it going to be a good fight? We know they have shuttles that drive around in hyperspace but Sheridan has White Stars. No contest. The Telepath War wouldn't really be a war at all, really...

That we know of. The brief glimpse of the psi-corp battle wagon in hyperspace could've been a hint as to a hidden fleet.

If you pull the strings, you can hide the puppet masters.

 

[chrisspringob]

So if the Shadows couldn't defeat the Great Machine, how was Clark going to destroy it?

And of course the inherent problem with the "Telepath War" is how is it going to be a good fight? We know they have shuttles that drive around in hyperspace but Sheridan has White Stars. No contest. The Telepath War wouldn't really be a war at all, really...

I don't think it was ever billed as a "real" war. In Crusade, it was referred to as the "Telepath Crisis". In "The Exercise of Vital Powers", Edgars predicts that a conflict with telepaths would primarily be a war of information. In one of the B5 script books, JMS gives exerpts he has from a brief treatment he made for a possible B5 feature film about the Telepath War. He writes that the war would not be between teeps and normals, but between different factions of teeps, with normals caught in the middle. From that brief treatment, it sounds like it starts with rogue telepath terrorist attacks on Psi Corps:

"There have been more bombings, attacks on Psi Corps ships from unknown forces. kidnappings on both sides....."

It then goes on to say that the setup for the movie would be crisis talks on the situation held on Babylon 5, with Sheridan mediating. But there's no hint as to where the story would go from there. (Though of course we did see a glimpse of the climax of the conflict in "The Path of Sorrows".)

Regarding "the original" concept for Seasons 4-5, it's always important to remember that the story was always in flux. The script books show that an early concept had Garibaldi staying on Mars for much of Season 5, while still remaining a part of the story, as action would continue on Mars beyond "Rising Star".

And even after production on Season 4 had completed and production on Season 5 was ramping up, there were planned story threads that got dropped. There had been a 3-part mini-arc that would have gone from 5x13 to 5x15 about David Sheridan from the future coming back in time and arriving on the station. This would have been interleaved with the Centauri arc, while the episode "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father" wouldn't have existed in this iteration.

 

[Aeon]

I wonder what would have happened years later with the remnant Psi Corps forces floating around in hyperspace and waiting for the right moment. We certainly saw a glimpse of one of the secret command ships in the unfilmed Crusade script.

Of course the situation with the Shadow Tech and Earth might have allied Bester with Gideon (and Sheridan behind the scenes) since he had no love for the Shadows either.

 

[Mr Light]

There had been a 3-part mini-arc that would have gone from 5x13 to 5x15 about David Sheridan from the future coming back in time and arriving on the station. This would have been interleaved with the Centauri arc, while the episode "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father" wouldn't have existed in this iteration.

Where did you hear this? I'd never heard this before in my life and hasn't JMS said that B2/WWE would be the only instance of time travel in the entire show?

 

[chrisspringob]

There had been a 3-part mini-arc that would have gone from 5x13 to 5x15 about David Sheridan from the future coming back in time and arriving on the station. This would have been interleaved with the Centauri arc, while the episode "The Corps is Mother, The Corps is Father" wouldn't have existed in this iteration.

Where did you hear this? I'd never heard this before in my life and hasn't JMS said that B2/WWE would be the only instance of time travel in the entire show?

It's in the B5 script book "Artifacts from Beyond the Rim". JMS provides scanned copies of the index cards he used to detail episode ideas he intended to use, following the loss of the original Season 5 index cards at Blackpool.

 

[Jan]

It's in the B5 script book "Artifacts from Beyond the Rim". JMS provides scanned copies of the index cards he used to detail episode ideas he intended to use, following the loss of the original Season 5 index cards at Blackpool.

Something that's important to remember is that Season Five was in a fair amount of flux, not only due to the loss of his notes and Claudia leaving, but because of the possibility of a sequel from TNT. At various times JMS was prepared for various scenarios depending on what TNT finally decided that it wanted. Of course, as it turned out, even when they decided they couldn't seem to stick with it...

Jan

 

[Mr Light]

I'm not sure how I would feel about more time travel use. The Great Machine was an entire planet constructed just to send B4 back/forwards and the rift was forever closed in "WWE" right?

Did we ever find out WHO built the Great Machine?

 

[Aeon]

Did we ever find out WHO built the Great Machine?

No, I don't think so.

 

[Candlelight]

I'm not sure how I would feel about more time travel use. The Great Machine was an entire planet constructed just to send B4 back/forwards and the rift was forever closed in "WWE" right?

Yes it was. I agree, having another time travel element in the show would make it as bad as Star Trek's overuse of that concept.

Babylon 4 was unique, and really had to stay that way.

 

[JoeD80]

Had Ivanova stuck around, it makes me wonder where her character would have been at the end of the telepath arc. Would she have been as disillusioned as Lyta? Would she have gone straight back to work in C&C like nothing happened?

Considering her depressed state in Sleeping in Light, I would guess not. I think it would have been Ivanova who had to call in Bester in the end, which would make for some interesting drama considering she almost killed him earlier in the series.

Did we ever find out WHO built the Great Machine?

A promotional script for Crusade implies it was a group of First Ones, but doesn't elaborate.

Yes it was. I agree, having another time travel element in the show would make it as bad as Star Trek's overuse of that concept. Babylon 4 was unique, and really had to stay that way.

I think it was intended to be related to the same time rift. But either way, I thought the concept sounded interesting - David Sheridan would have come back from the future and protested against Delenn and John Sheridan's policies, believing them to be responsible for whatever bad situation exists later. He's trying to stop his parents from making their terrible mistakes, and tries to warn them before he disappears. Later we find out he was right and John and Delenn were heading down some wrong roads.

 

[Mr Light]

Barring time travelling Vorlohumans wouldn't it HAVE to be First Ones who built the Great Machine? The question is, which ones?

I just remembered something. In "Lost Tales" Galen showed Sheridan a vision of the future, and there was an implication that Galen could somehow look into the future. Some form of time travel lite?

 

[Candlelight]

Yes it was. I agree, having another time travel element in the show would make it as bad as Star Trek's overuse of that concept. Babylon 4 was unique, and really had to stay that way.

I think it was intended to be related to the same time rift. But either way, I thought the concept sounded interesting - David Sheridan would have come back from the future and protested against Delenn and John Sheridan's policies, believing them to be responsible for whatever bad situation exists later. He's trying to stop his parents from making their terrible mistakes, and tries to warn them before he disappears. Later we find out he was right and John and Delenn were heading down some wrong roads.

That sounds very poor. In Into the Fire Sheridan said they're in charge of their own destiny now that the first ones have gone. Having someone else show up - their son no less - and start telling them what to do would be a slap in the face.

 

[Candlelight]

Barring time travelling Vorlohumans wouldn't it HAVE to be First Ones who built the Great Machine? The question is, which ones?

I just remembered something. In "Lost Tales" Galen showed Sheridan a vision of the future, and there was an implication that Galen could somehow look into the future. Some form of time travel lite?

Technomages were created using Shadow technology. Maybe the Shadows had crude time travel abilities. Or The Great Machine was built by allies of the Shadows, which was nixed by the Vorlons sometime prior to Babylon 5 being built in orbit.