Babylon 5 - Question of Rank

[Mr. Laser Beam]

The idea that these are both part of the same service is contradicted quite evidently in the episode "GROPOS." While General Franklin outranks Captain Sheridan, they're not technically part of the same chain of command... so Franklin's authority comes from the "Joint Chiefs" (another US military reference).

And the terminology raises another point: If it were one big combined service, there wouldn't be "joint" chiefs would there?

--Justin

Exactly my point.

My brain hurts with all of this logic.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Awesome work on those wiki pages, Reverend.

 

[J.T.B.]

I think it's clear things were a little wonky early on but I think they quickly got it straightened out. I'm not sure if said "wonkyness" was down to making things up as they went along or actually changing their minds between developing 'The Gathering' and the series proper. If you scroll down the article you'll see I included a subsection on the rank as they are described in the 'Security Manual'. From the looks of it (assuming that came from actual behind the scenes material) I'd say early on they'd intended to have a separation of the Naval/Airforce type ranks and the Army/Marine type.

Forgetting about the separation, fairly early on, does seem a likely source for some of the confusion.

As for the lack of enlisted ranks, I think it's more a case of them being there, just not fully fleshed out.

I see. I thought that was also from the system they were working from behind-the-scenes. Or was that officers only?

Speaking of odd insignias, I generally take the presence of the US colonel bird and the bath stars as a hold over from the EF's early days.

Then shouldn't major be a crown instead of three pips?

As I often point out, the Earth Alliance is not the UFP and Earthforce isn't Starfleet. Given what we know of the EA it seems likely that the first major contributors to the EF military in terms of personnel and hardware would have been the US and British/Commonwealth armed forces. So the insignia weren't designed from the ground up but where a mish-mash picked by some committee headed by a bunch of politically motivated senators and desk jockey generals.

"I'll give you your Bath pips if I can keep my colonel eagle"? That doesn't sound very likely and is just asking for confusion. A much simpler and more likely solution would be to simply adopt a system based on navy officer sleeve/shoulder stripes, which are almost identical between the US and UK and are quite similar the world over.

As for the source and reasoning for sequence RE: Majors, I guess checking the discussion page was too much effort so here's the letter from Copeland:[...]

I read it, it just wasn't much help. It looks to me like it was intended to shoehorn major, lt. colonel and colonel grades into some kind of scheme after the fact, so they would be consistent with what had already been established on-screen. And there is no "reasoning" given, other than they come next, and there is also no reason given for why so many grades are needed.

--Justin

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I still think Major belongs between Lieutenant and Lieutenant Commander, like I originally thought. Some of the Majors we saw, like Lianna Kemmer, were WAY too young to be up that high in the ranks. You think she could have outranked, say, Sheridan? I thought not.

Besides, look how Major Krantz visibly deferred to Sinclair (even saluted him) in "Babylon Squared". Krantz definitely acted like Sinclair was *his* superior officer, not the reverse.

 

[Reverend]

First of all, Copeland mixes up Ryan and Krantz here. And he doesn't really explain why Sinclair outranked Majors Atombe, Kemmer, and the actual Krantz then. But maybe this is the retcon here.

That or he's mixing up Sinclair and Sheridan. Either way it makes no difference at all.

I see. I thought that was also from the system they were working from behind-the-scenes. Or was that officers only?

The ones with the patches that were the ship's patch (or the ships letter) are NCOs or enlisted. Watch 'Endgame' or 'A Call to Arms', there's quite a few of them wandering around on the bridges of the Apollo and Aggie (probably the same extras ) and you may also notice that one of them in aCtA is played by Marjean Holden, before she was cast as Chambers.

"I'll give you your Bath pips if I can keep my colonel eagle"? That doesn't sound very likely and is just asking for confusion. A much simpler and more likely solution would be to simply adopt a system based on navy officer sleeve/shoulder stripes, which are almost identical between the US and UK and are quite similar the world over.

You expect logic and sense to emerge from a Senate committee? The very fact that those insignia are in a way emblematic of those two specific nation's respective armed forces would probably have been part of a PR tactic to show that Earthforce had not lost it's traditions by homogenising everyone.
Actually, in the early days I would imagine Earthforce was just a few steps up from today's coalition forces and it wasn't until, say the early to mid 22nd century that they even started to integrate. Hence the odd holdovers.

Then shouldn't major be a crown instead of three pips?

Only if Earhtforce officers swear an oath of allegiance to the British crown. Somehow I don't think they do.

I read it, it just wasn't much help. It looks to me like it was intended to shoehorn major, lt. colonel and colonel grades into some kind of scheme after the fact, so they would be consistent with what had already been established on-screen. And there is no "reasoning" given, other than they come next, and there is also no reason given for why so many grades are needed.

Like I said, it was a letter in a Q&A type column so he could hardly have gone into too much detail.

I still think Major belongs between Lieutenant and Lieutenant Commander, like I originally thought. Some of the Majors we saw, like Lianna Kemmer, were WAY too young to be up that high in the ranks. You think she could have outranked, say, Sheridan? I thought not.

Besides, look how Major Krantz visibly deferred to Sinclair (even saluted him) in "Babylon Squared". Krantz definitely acted like Sinclair was *his* superior officer, not the reverse.

Some? Of the four we saw three were played by actors in their 40s or 50s.

Kemmer was head of presidential security, that's not a job you get without some significant degree of experience and seniority. However young she may have been, she clearly made an impression and climbed the ranks very fast.
It also might be worth keeping in mind what the attrition rate of the Earth-Minbari War would have done to the officer ranks. It's not so unusual for young people to get promoted fast in that kind of climate and though Liana was certainly too young to have served in that conflict, the sheer depletion of numbers would have meant there were plenty of spots to fill for ambitious young officers.

As for Krantz, the guy was clearly not in control and was in a state of near panic almost the entire time. I don't think the exactitudes of military protocol were foremost in his mind.

And Ryan was evidentially the XO of a full General and one of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. You really think someone just one paygrade up from a mere Lieutenant would get that job? I once worked as a civilian clerk in the RHQ of a mere artillery regiment and I can tell you that the CO, who was a Lieutenant Colonel had two adjutants, one a Captain, one a Major and another Major as his 2IC.
Do you really think a General's flagship would be left under the command of anyone BELOW the rank of Captain in the General's absence? Of course not, that's insane.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I guess I just have a problem with the EF 'blue suits' not being Naval enough.

 

[Reverend]

Well they don't spend very much time at sea, so you shouldn't let it bother you too much.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ I'm of the opinion that since these are still ships, it makes sense that a Navy would operate them.

There's a reason they're called starSHIPS, you know. Just because they fly in space doesn't make them any less ships.

Ah, but what about SG-1, you ask. Well at least they had the guts to abandon even the *pretense* of naval structure and simply had the Air Force run things. You're either in or you're out...they could have had the B5 bluesuits be the same as that.

 

[Reverend]

Well SG-1 was a straight up USAF show, so of course they'd use the real ranks. However, it does make more sense for a space based force to have more of an Air force background than a Naval one what with the three dimensional tactics, fighter combat etc.

Indeed, how many astronauts were former Navy seamen? Naval aviators sure, but still aviators.

Plus of course EF was not a straight up copy of any one ranking system from any one nation's military. It's a conglomeration (somewhat awkward at time) of several Earth military traditions, specifically adapted for the needs of the day.
No military remains static and unchanged over time. Just over a century ago there was not such thing as an air force, or an army air corps and all the terminology, nomenclature and traditions of the RAF, the USAF and others have all been either at lest partly derived from existing systems, invented and/or likewise specifically adapted for the needs of the service and their theatre of operation.

To think that a future space based interstellar military force would just be a transplanted navy is just silly.

 

[J.T.B.]

You expect logic and sense to emerge from a Senate committee? The very fact that those insignia are in a way emblematic of those two specific nation's respective armed forces would probably have been part of a PR tactic to show that Earthforce had not lost it's traditions by homogenising everyone.

There had to come a point when the powers said, from this point on, these various forces no longer exist and are now Earthforce. In preparing for that point, it would make a lot more sense for a committee (far below Senate level, I'm sure) to come up with something simple, systematic, and neutral than to negotiate a mish-mash of different insignia from various members. That's where the naval-style stripes would work very nicely, and still be traditional. Similarly to how they were adopted by all the Canadian forces back in the '60s.

That's leaving aside the reasoning for adding three more officer grades than the "founding" nations have ever used, and why there would be a need to smash the army and navy systems together instead of picking one or another. The whole thing just doesn't ring true, other that an attempt to retrofit a system around stuff that was thrown onscreen without much forethought.

Then shouldn't major be a crown instead of three pips?

Only if Earhtforce officers swear an oath of allegiance to the British crown. Somehow I don't think they do.

My point is, if the three stars were intended to maintain some tradition of British-ness in the force, they would more likely be used for captain, as before. And if captain wasn't available, then why use three of them? Wouldn't one suffice? And if there was a transition state from individual forces to Earthforce, wouldn't changing the value of three pips add unnecessary confusion? Again, it just doesn't ring true.

Those GCB stars, BTW, have three small crowns on them, too!

Anyway, some nice work has been done to make sense of stuff that, IMO, ended up as kind of a mess.

--Justin

 

[Unicron]

Nice work, Reverend. I kept thinking for some reason that Ivanova was actually an admiral in SIL, but I don't trust my memory.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Admirals have been mentioned on the show, though never seen... So do they really exist or not?

 

[Reverend]

Of course they do. Who said they didn't?

Nice work, Reverend. I kept thinking for some reason that Ivanova was actually an admiral in SIL, but I don't trust my memory.

I have the same vague recollection. Perhaps it comes from an earlier draft of the script? Let's see how long it takes Jan to turn up and correct me....

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I was just wondering if B5 fans were trying to retcon Admirals out of existence simply because we never saw them - and since any unified rank system would appear to need either Generals *or* Admirals, but perhaps not both. How would they decide who's senior, for example? And in the end, in EarthForce, what job could an Admiral do that a General couldn't? We always see Generals in B5 doing the kinds of things that, in Starfleet (or the US Navy), Admirals would do. So if B5 has Generals, why would they need Admirals?

 

[Jan]

Nice work, Reverend. I kept thinking for some reason that Ivanova was actually an admiral in SIL, but I don't trust my memory.

I have the same vague recollection. Perhaps it comes from an earlier draft of the script? Let's see how long it takes Jan to turn up and correct me....

Sorry if I'm late...I was out for the afternoon. You're both right. Ivanova was originally an Admiral in early drafts of the SiL script.

Jan

 

[Reverend]

Thanks Jan, I knew I'd heard that somewhere before. Actually, while I have your attention, you think you could take a quick flick through the script for 'In The Beginning' and see if there's anything on Lefcourt and Fontaine's ranks? From memory I think Lefcourt had a two star insignia while Fontaine had three and though I'm pretty sure there's nothing in the final cut's dialogue, the script may have some notes, cut dialogue or something.

I was just wondering if B5 fans were trying to retcon Admirals out of existence simply because we never saw them - and since any unified rank system would appear to need either Generals *or* Admirals, but perhaps not both. How would they decide who's senior, for example? And in the end, in EarthForce, what job could an Admiral do that a General couldn't? We always see Generals in B5 doing the kinds of things that, in Starfleet (or the US Navy), Admirals would do. So if B5 has Generals, why would they need Admirals?

If you actually read what Copeland said, Admirals are responsible for the overall strategic fleets rather than task forces, formations squadrons etc. Generals on the other hand are tactical commanders. That distinction can be a little difficult to discern in science fiction as the term "fleet" can often get thrown around without any real regard for it's true meaning.

Given that, as I mentioned above there are different grades of General based on the various insignia, we can either presume that there are equivalent Admiral ranks (Vice Admiral, Rear, Admiral, Commodore or some-such) or that there's just the one Admiral rank and it's the equivalent of a full 4 star General or JCoS. Personally I think the latter is the more likely.

As for retconing Admirals out, that seems very unlikely as that letter was written in late '99. B5 was already over by that point and Crusade wasn't very far behind.

 

[David cgc]

The Babylon 5 flight sim was also being developed around that time, and one of the featured characters was going to be an admiral.

 

[Reverend]

^I actually have some photos from that shoot that were posted in the Official mag at the time. I recall one or two shots of Lockley in a dress uniform, Delenn and I think Sheridan plus two or three people in EF uniforms. Don't recall seeing anyone that had an Admiral look about them. Where did you hear that?

I wonder what happened to that footage? With a bit of luck at least a copy of it was sent to WB and is sitting on a shelf somewhere. On the other hand Sierra might have kept it for themselves and just chucked it in a skip with the rest of the games assets.

 

[David cgc]

The casting announcement on the game's original website. I've seen a picture of him in costume, as well... Here's a copy, on this page.

 

[Reverend]

^Nice. Unless my eyes deceive me, that's the same 5 star JCoS insignia as Hague. I didn't realise how many existing characters and actors had gotten involved. It looks like it was going to be a fairly elaborate thing...and it appears there are Vice Admirals after all! It's almost like a lost episode of B5 in a way, though I bet not even Jan has the script for this one!

Anyway, I appear to have some more wiki editing to do now!