Babylon 5 - Question of Rank

[Reverend]

Ok, I know I generally post this kind of crap over in TrekArt where it can be safely ignored, but this is more about fact checking than the graphics.
I've been working on an Earthforce rank chart for a little while now, without doing too much research (mostly from memory to be honest) and I just want to run it by everyone, since B5 seams to be fresh in peoples memories at the moment.

I know I've filled in a few gaps myself through extrapolation, but have I directly contradicted anything factual here? One weird thing I turned up in my research is that WO's and Ensigns have the same insignia as each other, as do Lieutenants and Lt. Commanders. Or am I missing something?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Major is a weird one because it has been shown to be subordinate to a commander ("Survivors;" Major Kemmer defers to Sinclair but that might have been more because he was officer-in-charge of B5) and above a captain ("Severed Dreams;" Major Ryan seemed superior to Sheridan).

Although, I like that you included the Admiral rank as briefly mentioned in "Eyes," "Signs and Portents" and "A Sky Full of Stars" but was never seen in the series. However, in the script for "Sleeping in Light," Ivanova is referred to as being an Admiral not a General as was in the aired episode.

EarthForce ranks always seemed in flux during the series and in "The Lost Tales." It never seemed overly consistant to me despite JMS's claims otherwise. Nevertheless, I give him a pass on it but wished that he'd been more concrete with the service that dominated his science-fiction universe.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Ok, I know I generally post this kind of crap over in TrekArt where it can be safely ignored, but this is more about fact checking than the graphics.
I've been working on an Earthforce rank chart for a little while now, without doing too much research (mostly from memory to be honest) and I just want to run it by everyone, since B5 seams to be fresh in peoples memories at the moment.

I know I've filled in a few gaps myself through extrapolation, but have I directly contradicted anything factual here? One weird thing I turned up in my research is that WO's and Ensigns have the same insignia as each other, as do Lieutenants and Lt. Commanders. Or am I missing something?

You're working from a mistaken assumption... ie, that Colonel and Major are in the same scheme as Commander and so forth. B5 used conventional, contemporary military rank structure, however.

For officer ranks, you don't look at the NAMES of the ranks, so much as the LEVELS. (Same goes for enlisted ranks but we're not discussing that right now, really, are we?)

_____Army/Air Force___________Navy
O-1___ 2nd Lieutenant___________Ensign
O-2 ___1st Lieutenant____________Lieutenant Junior Grade
O-3____Captain_________________Lieutenant
O-4 ___Major___________________Lieutenant Commander
O-5 ___Lieutenant Colonel_________Commander
O-6 ___Colonel__________________Captain
O-7 ___Brigadier General__________Rear Admiral (Lower Half)
O-8 ___Major General_____________Rear Admiral (Upper Half)
O-9 ___Lieutenant General ________Vice Admiral
O-10 __General__________________Admiral
O-11 __General of the (Army/AF) ___Fleet Admiral

So when comparing ranks, realize that some ranks are EQUIVALENT. You really need to compare by level (O-4, etc) rather than by name.

Check this out for "official sourcing." http://www.defenselink.mil/specials/insignias/officers.html

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

^Yes, but B5 often contradicted the contemporary military structure. For example, the blue shirts (since they wore blue) had both Air Force and Naval ranks combined. As I stated above with the rank of Major, sometimes it wouldn't mesh with what we know about today's military ranks across the branches. In EarthForce, it seems that a Colonel is above a Captain, i.e. Sheridan and Lochley, since the latter was promoted from Captain to Colonel in "The Lost Tales" as indicated by the supplemental material on the DVD.

EarthForce ranks and contemporary military ranks aren't one-to-one in the Babylon 5 'verse. There are tons of contradictions. In the memo sections of the script books, some of the early indications of rank in EarthForce are damn right off the charts. For example, the stat bars originally were going to be the rank devices:

From Babylon 5: The Scripts of J. Michael Straczynski, vol. 1

RANK:

Over the lest breast of a uniform (pocket or otherwise) is a thin horizontal metal bar -- say, 3" to 4" inches long, about 1/4" to 1/3rd" wide -- color-coded to specific ranks. (the color would be an enamel overlay.) For some hyphenated ranks, two colors, evenly divided on the bar, would be displayed.

Major-General: Gold and Red
Commander: Gold
Lt. Commander: Gold and Silver
Captain: Silver
Corporal: Blue
Sergeant: Green
All other NCOs: Brown

JMS's idea was that EarthForce was a combined service where all the military branches were formed into one big soup ala Kirk's comment to Captain Christopher that they were "a combined service." In another indication that JMS wasn't too hip on military ranks, he mentions in the script books, Dr. Kyle getting "some sort of commission, probably as corporal." Now, an M.D. qualifies for officer training and would recieve (as done in the show proper) a commission of Lieutenant and above not an enlisted rate such as corporal.

From JMS's original 13-page treatment, it didn't seem like Sinclair and the rest belonged to an overtly military organization but something akin to the UN Peacekeeping Forces. In fact, the ranks are more fictionalized, if you will. Commander Sinclair remains the same rank as he was in the series, but is referred to as being a Captain during the Earth-Minbari war. Chang (later Takashima) is referred to as being a Vice-Commander. Garabaldi is referred to as chief of security and seems more like a police chief than a military warrant officer or noncom as was the case in the series.

FYI, some other sites that have tried to make sense of the rank structure of EarthForce:
http://www.b5tech.com/misctech/earthforcerank/earthforcerank.html
http://www.st-spike.org/pages/nontrek/babylon5/ranks.htm
http://www.dalefranks.com/ea/earthalliance.swf

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Here is my own personal theory regarding B5's ranks:

Spoiler: B5

Assuming the entirety of B5 really is a documentary made by the Rangers after the fact, maybe this is one of the details they got wrong. Maybe they just screwed up the ranks. In this case, I would rationalize that Earth Force's "real" rank system is purely Navy (for the blue shirts) and 'Ground' (for Marines and Security). Any appearances of blue shirted officers with ranks like Major, Colonel and General could be chalked up to sloppy writing - both on the part of B5, the show, and the Ranger-produced documentary.

 

[Blip]

Yep, that as always my take on it too.

 

[Reverend]

I have to say I don't get the impression watching the show that the three main branches of Earthforce each have their own rank structure that they've kept the same for the last 200 years. Anyone who knows a little about military history knows that ranks change and fluctuate all the time to suit the needs of the day.

My thinking regarding the 'Major' problem is that Major is in the same paygrade as Captain and has more to do with position than rank as the only fleet Major we saw was an adjutant to a JCoS and out of the two Marine Majors we saw, one was in charge of B4 as a cartaker while it went online and the other was again an adjutant to a General. As for Kemmer, she was in EF Security and from what I understand, EF Security isn't exactly a military service, at least in the sense that British or American police are non-military. They're not enlised so much as employed, which would explain Ivanova's attitute and her line to Kemmer: "Major, I am a Commander in Earthforce" and when Garibaldi quit he mention an Earthforce contract. Plus of course Zack , Lou and the other Security officers were hired (hence no EA symbol.) So my thinking is that high ranking EFS personnel are given "honorary" ranks but their authority is limited by their jobs. I have personnally witnessed a precident to this when I worked for the Army as a civie administrator; I once saw a WO2 (SgtMaj) shout and scream at a full army Captain for telling him how to do his job. As I recall the Captain was in charge of an Artillery battery and the WO2 was chief clerk and the RQMS.
So even though Kemmer would be above Ivanova's paygrade, her position didn't allow her to give direct orders to fleet personnel, only request their co-operation.
As for Colonel, it HAS to be in the same scheme since Lochley was a Colonel by 2271. 10 years sounds about right for two rank promotions.

As for Admiral, yes I made it up, but with the intention of making it look like it was on par with a full general. Ideally I suppose it should be like the JCoS rank, but General Hague was clearly a fleet officer. The enlisted ranks are extrapolated out from the only two examples I can find and that SgtMaj Plug in "Gropos" and the female Sgt Gropo who let the Mars resistance into GS-Alpha in "Endgame". Even so it's not strictly correct as in "Gropos" neither the Pvts (Yang & Kleist) nor the two PFCs (Dodger and Large) wore any rank insignia at all. Also, oddly the senior NCO in "Endgame" had the fleet command division patch on BOTH sleves. Not sure what that means.

JMS's idea about rank have obviously changed since "The Gathering" as the rank insignia descriptions (which read as if they're right out of the series bible) are not even accurate to the show from season one onwards.

FYI, some other sites that have tried to make sense of the rank structure of EarthForce:
http://www.b5tech.com/misctech/earthforcerank/earthforcerank.html
http://www.st-spike.org/pages/nontrek/babylon5/ranks.htm
http://www.dalefranks.com/ea/earthalliance.swf

Yes, I've seen all those. Spike is the only one that even came close and I remember him developing that from a discussion we all had over on flare some years back.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

I have personnally witnessed a precident to this when I worked for the Army as a civie administrator; I once saw a WO2 (SgtMaj) shout and scream at a full army Captain for telling him how to do his job. As I recall the Captain was in charge of an Artillery battery and the WO2 was chief clerk and the RQMS.

Gotta correct you on that. A WO2 is a Chief Warrant Officer, while a Sergeant Major is a noncommissioned officer... aka senior enlisted. These are two totally different things.

Warrant officers are an odd thing... and are pretty close to what you mention. They're contracted (or "warranted") rather than commissioned (which is what officers are) or enlisted. They're still held accountable, yes, but they fall outside either the enlisted or officer chains of command.

My first job, after graduation from my OBC, was as the battalion S4 for the 107th MI BN. I was a 2LT at the time, and I had two warrant officers working for me, running the BN motor pool. Good guys, very unmilitary... to them it was a job, not a profession. The fell outside of the chain of command... ie, they really had no authority to give orders to the enlisted folks under their command, on their own steam. So it worked like this... I ordered the (enlisted) folks who worked in the motor pool to follow the "instructions" given to them by our two "master-mechanic" warrant officers. So in theory, the orders that these guys were giving were MY orders. But since I didn't know diddly squat about running a garage, they were acting on my behalf. They had no authority of their own... sort of like how a babysitter has no personal authority over the kids he or she babysits... only the authority granted to them by the parents.

Fortunately, I had a great relationship with my two motor pool chiefs and was respected by the NCOs over my motor-pool enlisted guys, so things went well. But if you got an officer into that position who didn't have good relationships all around, or if you had a warrant who thought he "deserved the authority himself" and didn't play by the rules, well... that can cause trouble. Because these guys don't have any "authority of their own." NOT a situation I'd want to find myself in...

A Sergeant Major, on the other hand, is a totally different thing. He has a LOT of authority. And while a Sergeant Major is technically outranked by even a 2LT, only a total idiot would try to play that card.

NOW... why'd I just go through that? Well, it's because your anecdote has two TOTALLY DIFFERENT MEANINGS, depending on whether this was a warrant officer or an NCO.

A warrant officer can do what you just described, and the worst that can happen to him is to get fired. But a warrant officer is normally not going to to that because he has no authority of his own.

On the other hand, an NCO who did what you just described, and in PUBLIC no less, would be immediately subject to Article 15 proceedings for insubordination, and SHOULD be court-martialed over it (especially if it's happened more than once). Of course, a Sergeant Major would not hold the position you describe... Sergeant Majors are generally the senior enlisted person in a Battalion (sometimes), or more commonly with a Regiment or a Brigade. They're basically at the same level as the unit commander, and generally report ONLY to the commander (who would be either a Lt. COL or a full Colonel). They would NEVER be found in a "clerk" type job.

It's very common for senior NCOs to "correct" junior officers, or even company-grade officers like the one you mention. "Officially" they can't do that... because the lowest-ranking commissioned officer technically outranks the highest-ranking NCO. So there's a way to do it. I never minded my NCOs giving me advice, or even telling me that I was "fucking up." But not in public, not in front of the troops. I had one guy do that (and he was wrong in that case anyway)... a senior NCO who was closing in on retirement. He challenged me repeatedly, in front of the troops, and was just generally insubordinate (he was around 50 and I was late 20s). I wouldn't have minded him talking with me, PRIVATELY, like that... but what he was doing was intolerable, and I had no choice but to file charges and, as a result, he left the service at a reduced rank. This was HIS doing, not mine... I simply acted to prevent him from undermining my authority, which was necessary for me to do the job I was required to do.

 

[Reverend]

I should point out this is the British Army and as I understand it a WO2 has replaced SgtMaj as a rank. I'm not certain how our military rank and job structure compares the the US Army, it always seams to fluctuate due to staff shortages. Hell, my job was supposed to be done by a Sgt, but they didn't have the manpower to spare someone to sit behind a desk and answer the phone.

I actually asked him about his once (after he told me off for calling the RSM (who was a WO1 btw) 'mate') since I had no idea how to read the various rank insignia. Also he had this odd quirk of shouting out drill instruction while sorting his mail (squaddies, don't ask) and I said jokingly that I be he couldn't wait to be a Sergeant Major, to which he replied "I am, that's what a WO2 is". If you think differently, feel free to go argue with him. Personally I gave up trying to figure out the subtleties of military protocol.

As for the incident (or as he called it, "educating an officer") it wasn't strictly speaking in public. He took the captain into an office that was subdivided off of mine (which I shared with a SSgt who wasn't in that day) so I'm pretty sure only the three of us heard it. The Discipline Clerk was a civvie too and a shameless gossip (I had to chase him off from trying to read other people's mail from the pigeon holes more than once), so if the Captain tried to press charges I'm sure it would have been on the grapevine. Either that or the CO (a LtCol) told him it served him right and to bugger off. Either way the Provst (another WO2) was his best mate so I couldn't have gone too badly.
Now that I think about it, it started with a phone conversation where the Captain was asking about one of his soldier's personel records (which the WO2 was in charge of) and not happy with what he was being told said (from what he said afterward) "now you're just making this up" to whit the responce "come down and see me sir." *slams phone down*. His tiny office is was right next to mine (which was actually the orderly room I think) I heard his half of the conversation and watched as he spent the two minutes before the Captain arrived pacing infront of my desk, getting himself reved up. He then he took the Rupert into the office and explains his position with great volume.
It was actually quite a funny sight at the time and I had to fight the urge to grin, the daft Captain kept trying to asert his authority by saying "now, don't speak to me like that Sergeant Major." Odd thing was thoughout the whole thing the WO2 neither swore nor did he fail to call him 'Sir'. Something I gather is the hallmark of a SgtMaj, at least that's what my grand father used to tell me as he was an acting RSM before the war and did a stint training officers.

Like I said, I'm not sure how British Army culture compares the the US Army and I don't know if you've ever had the pleasure of meeting any of our lot, or god forbid been one of the unluckly ones to get posted down here in sunny Wiltshire but I gather our way is a little more old fashioned in the sense that any officer with half a braincell knows (so about half of them) it's the NCOs who run the Army while the Ruperts just happen to be in charge for the time being.

As for giving out instructions outside of the chain of command, I was often lumbered with a runner (usually a bombardier or one of Provost's numpties from the guard house) and as I was told, he basically had to do what I told him. Though I'm sure it's partly because they can't let a soldier at the lowest rank think he can give anyone orders, even a civvie and partly because rank and file need to do as they're told. All it really meant though is that I had him do some sorting, answer the Staffy's phone and run documents up the to DCoS.

[EDIT]

Wikipedia to the rescue -> WO2

 

[Sharr Khan]

The only thing I can say about JMS odd military rank structure is that he in general has issues of "Protocol" and it often comes out in his work. I cringe when he had Sheridan refer to the ISA's residence on Minbar as "A royal palace" - Presidents can indeed live in palaces but the correct way to refer to such is as a Presidential Palace.

We also see this when he's talking about Londo's privite coronation (I felt cheated we never but for a glimpse saw the crown placed on his head) by having Delenn call it an "inauguration".

Sharr

 

[Reverend]

Unless of course it's a very old Minbari building that was once occupied by a monarch in the time before Valen. Most cites are after all carefully preserved over the centuries, so it's doubtfull they'd just bulldoze a section of the city just to build a new HQ for the ISA. More likely they adapted what was already there.

As for inauguration vs coronatio. English language terms for alien ceremonies probably don't translate well and given that Londo was made Emperor through a political process rather than through royal inheritance, 'inauguration' may be more appropriate.

 

[J.T.B.]

According to NATO agreements, a UK Warrant Officer Class 1 is the equivalent of a US E-9, and a WO2 is equal to an E-8. One traditional job title for the British WO1 is Regimental Sergeant Major, and Company Sergeant Major for WO2, or what the US Army would call a First Sergeant.

US warrant officers are an in-between class that most nations don't use. Also, US warrant officers of pay grade W-2 and above actually hold commissions from the President with the advice and consent of the Senate, the same as an O-1.

--Justin

 

[Reverend]

That sounds right, I remember that the RSM (who I think was also the GSM) was a WO1 and I think most of the SMIGs & SMISs (Sergeant Major Instructor Gunnery & Sergeant Major Instructor Signals) in the regiment were WO2s. I know this because I was the Regiment orderly clerk and got the fabulously glamorous job of sorting all their mail. You wouldn't belive how many squaddies use their regiment HQ as a forwarding address for their junk mail.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Fascinating... I had no idea that things were like this in the UK. Of course, since JMS is in the USA I've been assuming that he'd have much more exposure to the US rank structure anyway, and that it would be the basis of his B5 rank structure.

Everything I've ever seen on-screen was consistent with US Military rank structure... except for the "promotion" of Lochley in "Lost Tales" which has been mentioned here. B5 treated "ground forces" (Army/Marine) with conventional US Military ground forces rank structures. And treated "Naval" forces (which seem to now include the equivalent of the "air force" today) with Naval rank structures.

The idea that these are both part of the same service is contradicted quite evidently in the episode "GROPOS." While General Franklin outranks Captain Sheridan, they're not technically part of the same chain of command... so Franklin's authority comes from the "Joint Chiefs" (another US military reference).

I'm not recalling perfectly at the moment, but I seem to recall that the "Gropos" had a different name... aka, not "Earthforce." My impression has always been that there are two "combined forces" now... one which is is a combination of Air Force and Navy, and another which is a combination of Army and Marine Corps. Very different jobs, very different cultures, very different rank structures.

Now, when you look at B5, it's really a "ground facility" more than a "naval base" (albeit one that's artificial and floating in space!) So, it's reasonable to assume that it SHOULD have, all protocol issues taken into account, been assigned to a ground forces commander. It's always seemed a bit odd that it was assigned to a naval command structure, honestly.

 

[J.T.B.]

The idea that these are both part of the same service is contradicted quite evidently in the episode "GROPOS." While General Franklin outranks Captain Sheridan, they're not technically part of the same chain of command... so Franklin's authority comes from the "Joint Chiefs" (another US military reference).

And the terminology raises another point: If it were one big combined service, there wouldn't be "joint" chiefs would there?

--Justin

 

[Cary L. Brown]

The idea that these are both part of the same service is contradicted quite evidently in the episode "GROPOS." While General Franklin outranks Captain Sheridan, they're not technically part of the same chain of command... so Franklin's authority comes from the "Joint Chiefs" (another US military reference).

And the terminology raises another point: If it were one big combined service, there wouldn't be "joint" chiefs would there?

--Justin

Exactly my point.

 

[Sean_McCormick]

[...]
Everything I've ever seen on-screen was consistent with US Military rank structure... except for the "promotion" of Lochley in "Lost Tales" which has been mentioned here. B5 treated "ground forces" (Army/Marine) with conventional US Military ground forces rank structures. And treated "Naval" forces (which seem to now include the equivalent of the "air force" today) with Naval rank structures.
[...]

How do you see "Generals" Hague, Smits and Lecourt (sp) and "Major" Ryan fit in with your observations, since they are by their uniform color and insignias clearly naval officers?

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

B5 treated "ground forces" (Army/Marine) with conventional US Military ground forces rank structures. And treated "Naval" forces (which seem to now include the equivalent of the "air force" today) with Naval rank structures.

I'm not recalling perfectly at the moment, but I seem to recall that the "Gropos" had a different name... aka, not "Earthforce." My impression has always been that there are two "combined forces" now... one which is is a combination of Air Force and Navy, and another which is a combination of Army and Marine Corps. Very different jobs, very different cultures, very different rank structures.

Which is how I always felt that EarthForce was divided, based on what you point out as evidence from the show, as having two separate divisions-- Navy (Blue Shirts) and Ground Forces (Brown/Green Shirts). Although, I like that Reverend calls them "Fleet and "Marines." Perhaps, there are two major military departments-- "Fleet" and "Ground" with two minor divisions of "Explorer" and "Security." The former division would be integrated within the "Fleet" department while the latter would be in addition to both departments.

Now, when you look at B5, it's really a "ground facility" more than a "naval base" (albeit one that's artificial and floating in space!) So, it's reasonable to assume that it SHOULD have, all protocol issues taken into account, been assigned to a ground forces commander. It's always seemed a bit odd that it was assigned to a naval command structure, honestly.

It could also be argued that Babylon 5 is a naval facility since it serves as a port-of-call for various ships and such, but doesn't have a fleet of ships assigned to it. Then again, later in the series, it does have a fleet of White Stars stationed out of it (but that's after the break from Earth and EarthForce).

Nevertheless, it would seem that construction is handled by Ground Forces as a Gropos Major was in command of B4 during its construction phase who was then going to hand over the station to its proper commander, be it Sinclair or someone else. A similar situation might've occured with Babylon 5 as well.

As for Kemmer, she was in EF Security and from what I understand, EF Security isn't exactly a military service, at least in the sense that British or American police are non-military. They're not enlised so much as employed, which would explain Ivanova's attitute and her line to Kemmer: "Major, I am a Commander in Earthforce" and when Garibaldi quit he mention an Earthforce contract. Plus of course Zack , Lou and the other Security officers were hired (hence no EA symbol.) So my thinking is that high ranking EFS personnel are given "honorary" ranks but their authority is limited by their jobs.

Zack and the rest seemed to be civilian police that had been contracted specifically by Babylon 5 and not part of EarthForce. The Babylon 5 Tech Manual goes into some detail on this. I also think JMS mentions it in his posts-- Jan might know.

However, Garabaldi seemed to have earned his warrant commision in EarthForce. It's mention in a couple episoded that Garabaldi served in the Earth-Minbari war as, iirc, a ground pounder. It is possible that when he signed back up that his commision was reactivated and he was placed into the Security Division of EarthForce. As for mentioning a "contract," isn't it common that when someone joins up that he/she signs a contract for a comittment of a set number of years? Enlisted, iirc, in the USN have to continually re-sign to stay in, should they so choose beyond their set number of service years. This might be what Garabaldi was referring to.

Perhaps, there is a security division that is strictly EarthForce and officers within that division oversee the civilian police at miltary instellations such as Babylon 5 and are also detailed to help with federal security which would include the President's office at home or abroad.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

How do you see "Generals" Hague, Smits and Lecourt (sp) and "Major" Ryan fit in with your observations, since they are by their uniform color and insignias clearly naval officers?

Well, I didn't get the impression that General Hague was a naval officer. The ship he was on during the civil war wasn't necessarily "his" ship... any more than the Enterprise was Kirk's ship during TWOK. He was just using it... I'm sure that the ship had a captain of it's own.

Uniform colors aren't necessarily consistent... though I notice that most "Ground forces" types are in grey or green and most naval/air-force guys are in blue.

The connection between Hague and Sheridan wasn't that they were in the same chain of command at any prior point. They were in a "conspiracy." So I'm not at all bothered by that. And Major Ryan was simply General Hague's adjutant.... his assistant. In times of civil war, I'm sure that the niceties of command structure become a bit more... fluid?

I'm afraid I'm not remembering General Smits. Who was he again?

As for General Lefcourt, that's a little bit vague and inconsistent, I'll agree. He really should have been "Admiral Lefcourt." But oh well... "It's just a TV show."

 

[MarianLH]

I'm not recalling perfectly at the moment, but I seem to recall that the "Gropos" had a different name... aka, not "Earthforce."

The name was EarthForce Marine Corps. Or at least that's what some jogging gropos were chanting in one scene. That doesn't mean they can't still be a separate service, though. The relationship could be analogous to that between the USN and USMC.


Marian