Babylon 5: All the things that weren't

[Lighthammer]

Babylon 5 was one of the first series to have a finite five year arch outlined before the premier of the first episode.

For better or for worse, over the course of Babylon 5's run, we know the comings and goings of certain actors as well as budget issues led to the overall story of some characters to change. JMS himself has addressed some of these changes in various interviews or posts.

I think it fun to have a thread dedicated to thinking up all those what ifs that either we outright know about, can infer from various bits of information throughout the series or some things that felt like a foregone conclusion that JMS himself never seemed to recognize.

 

[Guy Gardener]

There was supposed to be an episode where Morden goes to Vegasworld and uses the Shadows to cheat at Blackjack.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

How about General Hague actually appearing in Severed Dreams?

JMS killed Hague offscreen just because Robert Foxworth dared to appear on DS9.

(well to be fair, Foxworth's agent doublebooked him on B5 and DS9 at the same time. He had to choose which one to do, so he chose DS9, which was a two-parter. Still, JMS' "revenge" seems a bit harsh....)

 

[Candlelight]

The full and original 'how they caught Zathras' scene from Babylon Squared that never materialized in War Without End would be good to see.

 

[Candlelight]

I'd actually be keen to see (in an alternate reality as I liked what we got) the whole 'destroy Babylon 5 and continue the story in another show on Babylon 4/Prime' storyline.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Dem Spoilers...

I just wanna actually see all the things Season 5 teased. For all his, "well, the story has to end eventually, what did you expect?", we still know Crusade was going to examine the Telepath War, and so forth. I really feel like the fifth season's second half, reasonably well-written though it was, was in a lot of ways a great, big teaser.

Please don't misconstrue; I love reading books and I do so quite often. But I'm also studying to become an actor/voice actor. Those people playing the roles, they're incredibly important to me. So it's always a letdown for me when I have to shift over to written (or drawn, as with comic continuations) format to see what happens next in cases in which I feel like more should have been shown.

I understand that B5 was, at its core, about the station and its personnel at pivotal points. I understand that the Telepath War and the Centauri Prime War were essentially far removed from that station. (Well, I could be vehemently mistaken there, as I've yet to read the books, but I plan on doing so.) And I understand, and greatly appreciate, that the Shadow War and the War Against Earth (or whatever its official designation was... oops) were brought to strong conclusions. I absolutely respect JMS and his team for such a colossal achievement.

But I'm still one o' those. I just feel as though there was so much build-up for things we didn't get to see, even if the creator himself felt otherwise. His authority clearly supersedes my own, but I still feel that way.

Retrospect can be dangerous.

 

[Lighthammer]

Before I jump into this, I'd like to iterate I'm not grinding an axe. The overall execution tends to make you forget some of the would be inconsistencies.

The one thing I've always found odd is how they insert Sheridan into the series to take over Sincalir's role.

In the season 3 premier, Sheridan is all but anointed as the one who Marcus goes to for help. They magically have the White Star a full crew but only Sheridan can captain it? Come on :-|

It just feels like a disconnect all around. Sure, we know Sheridan managed to blow up their Flagship but that in of itself doesn't entitle him to the kind of respect he seems to have magically earned.

Sinclair on the other hand is known to the Grey Council as another name: Valin. They have EVERY REASON to rally behind him as if he is the savior of the universe.

Sheridan's real name to fame is coming back from Za'ha'doom alive after the majority knew he dealt a crippling blow to the Shadows. Up until that point, it just feels rather fake that anyone outside of the Earth Alliance is rallying behind him.

If you plug Sinclair into the same exact situation, everything makes a lot more sense. I mean they spent most of Season 1 building up this undying loyalty Delen has towards Sinclair and we had enough tidbits dropped on our lap that we fully recognize there is good reasons for this even if they are very mysterious and we don't exactly know what they are yet.

Sadly I don't think they really road the Sheridan is a walking God (lets use that for the moment) long enough in season 4, but understandably so considering we were pretty sure Season 4 would be the end of the series for most of the season.

 

[Deckerd]

I thought Michael O'Hare couldn't commit to anything after season one. That kind of stuffs all the best laid plans. I found Sheridan a bit too gung-ho to start with but you kind of got used to it after a while.

 

[Candlelight]

Sheridan's real name to fame is coming back from Za'ha'doom alive after the majority knew he dealt a crippling blow to the Shadows. Up until that point, it just feels rather fake that anyone outside of the Earth Alliance is rallying behind him.

If you plug Sinclair into the same exact situation, everything makes a lot more sense. I mean they spent most of Season 1 building up this undying loyalty Delenn has towards Sinclair and we had enough tidbits dropped on our lap that we fully recognize there is good reasons for this even if they are very mysterious and we don't exactly know what they are yet.

Sadly I don't think they really road the Sheridan is a walking God (lets use that for the moment) long enough in season 4, but understandably so considering we were pretty sure Season 4 would be the end of the series for most of the season.

I'd always preferred the notion that Sinclair was actually two people; one the station commander ("Sheridan"), the other the Earth ambassador ("Sinclair"). That way Sinclair could focus on the Minbari, Babylon 4, and at the end of season one get reassigned to Minbar (the character may not even need to be a regular character, perhaps recurring would suffice). Then Sheridan can focus on looking after the station, dealing with Raiders.

In season two after Sinclair has departed, the new Ambassador begins pushing the station in a Clark-esque direction, forcing an additional card to be played as the season plays out, putting an even bigger strain during the events of 'The Fall of Night', and a major collision during Messages from Earth/Point of No Return/Severed Dreams.

Then Sinclair could just return and complete his destiny in War Without End.

But that's just me.

 

[Lighthammer]

You know, thats kind of an interesting spin if I gather what you're doing with it.

Something that always bothered me about the whole setup with the command staff. The Commander of B5 as a Military Governor generates *A LOT* of work and it puts you in A LOT of sticky situations that you wouldn't want to be involved if you were an Ambassador. Even if we can write off Ivnova doing a lot of the 'grunt work"; there's still a pilthera of logistical reasons you wouldn't want to be in charge of the place *AND* be the Ambassador at the same time. You would't ever have the President be the Ambassador at the UN for the same reasons.

B5 should have had the Earth Alliance Government managing the station and the Earth Alliance Ambassador as two different people.

I understand in Season 5 there was plans to do this , but timing and/or budget didn't allow for it.

If there were two people in positions of power on the station, this could have added a whole new layer to the plot. Either the Ambassador could have been loyal to Clark or vice-a-versa.

Just drumming up a what if scenario: Lets pretend Sinclair gets pulled off the station for different reasons --- not re=assigned but something more along the lines of a conspiracy to remove him or him being lost in a Star Fury. For sake of depth, lets assign the "Warren Keffer" plot to Sinclair in some capacity. Sheridan could have been the Ambassador from the get-go post "The Gathering" while Sinclair was still on the station. After Sinclair was lost, Clark installs a much more forceful loyalist to command the station who is part of Night Watch. This causes Takashima, Ivonova, Sheradin and Geribaldi to rebel to overthrow him in the wake of an episode like "Severed Dreams". Instead of Delen showing up with a fleet of Minbari ships, Sinclair could return with a fleet of White Star ships.

Just for cause, in my mind, I'm unsure at what point in this scenerio where I'd suggest Takshima's control substory would play in. Heck, the new commander of B5 could know her trigger word and use it at the worst possible moment during the rebellion some how forcing Druul to step in.

THAT has some potential as a plot.

 

[Candlelight]

I understand in Season 5 there was plans to do this , but timing and/or budget didn't allow for it.

They sort of did anyway; Sheridan was President who dealt with the ISA, while Lochley looked after the station.

 

[Reverend]

IIRC the intention to include an 'Earth Alliance Ambassador' character was before Claudia Christian left the show, so one assumes that she would have been the Station Commander while a new character would be brought in as a mouthpiece for Earthdome. I can only speculate that Claudia's departure meant that Lochley would be merged with the Ambassador character since introducing yet another new major character (plus Byron) at the top of the season probably wasn't a good idea.

So since some of Claudia's plot threads (namely the Byron romance) were moved to Lyta, it probably means that what Lochley ended up with were the remnants of the Earth Ambassador's role...though I think (but don't know for sure) the ex-wife bit was made up late in the game. It would at least make the tension over which side of the EA Civil War she was on make a little more sense if she were actually a part of Earthdome. I mean, if she had been part of the opposition then surely she'd be either dead or in prison, no? Actually begs the question what was Luchenko's role in Clark's government, no? So one can imagine having a former Clark loyalist (as opposed to a military officer who just so happened *not* to get illegal orders) on the station was intended to fuel some of the drama.

 

[RandyS]

How about General Hague actually appearing in Severed Dreams?

JMS killed Hague offscreen just because Robert Foxworth dared to appear on DS9.

(well to be fair, Foxworth's agent doublebooked him on B5 and DS9 at the same time. He had to choose which one to do, so he chose DS9, which was a two-parter. Still, JMS' "revenge" seems a bit harsh....)

I always loved the irony there. Foxworth went to DS9 and attempted on that show the very thing he (rightly) accused Clark of on Babylon 5.

Yes, I know they were two different characters,in two different universes, but still.....

 

[Lighthammer]

IIRC the intention to include an 'Earth Alliance Ambassador' character was before Claudia Christian left the show, so one assumes that she would have been the Station Commander while a new character would be brought in as a mouthpiece for Earthdome. I can only speculate that Claudia's departure meant that Lochley would be merged with the Ambassador character since introducing yet another new major character (plus Byron) at the top of the season probably wasn't a good idea.

So since some of Claudia's plot threads (namely the Byron romance) were moved to Lyta, it probably means that what Lochley ended up with were the remnants of the Earth Ambassador's role...though I think (but don't know for sure) the ex-wife bit was made up late in the game. It would at least make the tension over which side of the EA Civil War she was on make a little more sense if she were actually a part of Earthdome. I mean, if she had been part of the opposition then surely she'd be either dead or in prison, no? Actually begs the question what was Luchenko's role in Clark's government, no? So one can imagine having a former Clark loyalist (as opposed to a military officer who just so happened *not* to get illegal orders) on the station was intended to fuel some of the drama.

Whoa, I never realized Ivonova was supposed to be the one to get together Byron. Never, ever realized that.

I do know Ivonova's role in all of the telepath conspiracy related stories got played down a ton. I'd kind of like to hear more about her original story. I have to admit, she's one I don't know a ton about.

Another random plot thought came to me as I was watching "A Late Delivery from Avalon" last night. Wouldn't it have been REALLY COOL if Arthur really did come out of the past? I think there would have been a bit of symbolism, especially where the legend of Valen is concerned.

Essentially at this point in time, humans generally wrote off legends where Minbari revere many of them. It would have been neat to see an episode that really drove home the idea of wonder and mystery in the universe and reignited that spark among humans as a whole. They could have taken it a step further and illustrated that Arthur in fact had the soul of a Minbari adding more to the idea of the races coming together.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

How about General Hague actually appearing in Severed Dreams?

JMS killed Hague offscreen just because Robert Foxworth dared to appear on DS9.

(well to be fair, Foxworth's agent doublebooked him on B5 and DS9 at the same time. He had to choose which one to do, so he chose DS9, which was a two-parter. Still, JMS' "revenge" seems a bit harsh....)

I always loved the irony there. Foxworth went to DS9 and attempted on that show the very thing he (rightly) accused Clark of on Babylon 5.

And he did it AGAIN on Enterprise!

 

[Sindatur]

IIRC the intention to include an 'Earth Alliance Ambassador' character was before Claudia Christian left the show, so one assumes that she would have been the Station Commander while a new character would be brought in as a mouthpiece for Earthdome. I can only speculate that Claudia's departure meant that Lochley would be merged with the Ambassador character since introducing yet another new major character (plus Byron) at the top of the season probably wasn't a good idea.

So since some of Claudia's plot threads (namely the Byron romance) were moved to Lyta, it probably means that what Lochley ended up with were the remnants of the Earth Ambassador's role...though I think (but don't know for sure) the ex-wife bit was made up late in the game. It would at least make the tension over which side of the EA Civil War she was on make a little more sense if she were actually a part of Earthdome. I mean, if she had been part of the opposition then surely she'd be either dead or in prison, no? Actually begs the question what was Luchenko's role in Clark's government, no? So one can imagine having a former Clark loyalist (as opposed to a military officer who just so happened *not* to get illegal orders) on the station was intended to fuel some of the drama.

Whoa, I never realized Ivonova was supposed to be the one to get together Byron. Never, ever realized that.

I do know Ivonova's role in all of the telepath conspiracy related stories got played down a ton. I'd kind of like to hear more about her original story. I have to admit, she's one I don't know a ton about.

Another random plot thought came to me as I was watching "A Late Delivery from Avalon" last night. Wouldn't it have been REALLY COOL if Arthur really did come out of the past? I think there would have been a bit of symbolism, especially where the legend of Valen is concerned.

Essentially at this point in time, humans generally wrote off legends where Minbari revere many of them. It would have been neat to see an episode that really drove home the idea of wonder and mystery in the universe and reignited that spark among humans as a whole. They could have taken it a step further and illustrated that Arthur in fact had the soul of a Minbari adding more to the idea of the races coming together.

I believe her latent Telepathy was supposed to be awakened ala Secrets of the Soul, and/or there was supposed to be a cat-fight over Byron.

 

[Jan]

I believe her latent Telepathy was supposed to be awakened ala Secrets of the Soul, and/or there was supposed to be a cat-fight over Byron.

No cat fight was ever indicated in anything I ever saw. Ivanova was supposed to be the one in a relationship with Byron which is why he was planned to have a superficial resemblance to Marcus. Her small amount of telepathy would have been enough to really conflict her when it came to the rogue teeps and having to call in Bester. Lyta was just supposed to be a devoted follower.

Jan

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

I know I might get a few shots fired on me for saying this, but I kind of... like the Byron story as-is. *runs away*

I dunno, I just prefer the Byron/Lyta angle, is what I mean. Can't say anything for sure without actually seeing the originally conceived idea in action, but I'm not as thematically thrilled with the idea of Ivanova/Byron, and having Lyta on the sidelines more. I'm not saying I wouldn't want Ivanova to eventually move on from Marcus, and I understand people can become quite emotionally compromised in extreme circumstances, but... I dunno, just seems... too soon in a lot of ways.

Plus, I think Lyta had some good chemistry with Byron, regardless of how mediocre a lot of the rest of the Telepath Crisis execution was.

 

[RoJoHen]

Yeah, I honestly had no problem with Byron. It was the rest of the douchey telepaths that bugged me.

 

[Quinton O'Connor]

Haha, yes, pretty much.