Babylon 4

[Candlelight]

How long did Babylon 4 spend in 2258? Susan said it would take about 10 hours to evacuate the station, and that doesn’t include the 3 hours it took from Alpha 7 to return (assuming the pilot saw Babylon 4 fully stabilise at the moment he was hit by the temporal energy). Plus however long it took for Franklin to do the autopsy on the pilot. So according to what was said maybe 12-13 hours.

However once on B4 things seem to move a lot quicker. Sinclair and Garibaldi board the station, get attacked by the crazed officer, met with Krantz and then Zathras which appears to only last a few minutes, though just before this the first load of people are evacuated and Babylon 5 launches its second batch of shuttles and escort fighters.. Then Zathras runs to the One and gives him the time stabiliser, which causes him to vanish (?), after which Garibaldi goes and helps the rest of the evacuation. Sinclair continues the interrogation of Zathras, which seems to only go on for a few more minutes, before they all leave, Zathras gets pinned down, everyone else flees just as the station vanishes. To me it seems like not more than two hours has gone by since they first arrived. Granted there are times when it could be dragged out but the dialogue doesn’t seem to support this.

Is Babylon 5 in Sector 14 too? If it only takes three hours in normal space, even at maximum burn that would surely only get you across a solar system? In In The Beginning we see Babylon 1 being built in orbit of a planet which looks a lot like Epsilon 3. Epsilon 4 maybe...?

Finally, it’s been said that parts of Babylon 3 were recycled into Babylon 4, and that some emblems are visible in Babylon 4 from B3. Is there any evidence of this on screen? I’ve never seen the logos, then again I’m not 100% sure what B3 looks like, I only found this image:

Compared to the B4 logo:

Which appears quite common across the station.

Thanks!

 

[Candlelight]

Don't ask me why I uploaded the B4 image.

Just thought it would make the thread look nice.

 

[shivkala]

Been a while since I've seen the episodes in question, but if I remember, it took a while for Babylon 4 to fully materialize in 2258. I don't think it was fully materialized until Sinclair and Garibaldi got there. Krantz's line, "It's starting again," leads me to believe they were fading in and out, stabilizing for a short period of time when Sinclair was there, then moving backwards in time when future!Sinclair was onboard.

As for the sector, JMS said this about the topic:

B1-B4 were located in roughly the same sector, with B4 using some of the materials from 1-3 leftover. B5 was constructed about 3 hours (traveling time in real-space) from the location of B4.

 

[Reverend]

As for the nature of sectors, I don't think JMS has ever said exactly how big they are or how they're assigned. I suspect his ideas changes somewhat over the course of the show as I think it was season 3 before we started hearing longer (read, more precise) sector numbers i.e. "Sector ** by ** by **."

Either way, it's clear Sector 14 is a separate area to whatever sector B5 was in (Euphrates Sector if memory serves.) However there were a couple mentions of B5 being in "Grid Epsilon". What a "Grid" is and how it relates to a "Sector" is also something of a mystery.

Still, in the interest of pure speculation, let's say for the sake of argument that B5 is located in 'Sector 25 by 50 by 13' and that 'Sector 25' encompasses several light years while the "50" is a Grid number (Grid epsilon in this case) and that the "13" is a sub-sector or local sector, so then B4 would be in 'Sector 25 by 50 by 14'. Same sector and grid, but different sub-sector, which is why if you happen to be in a neighbouring sub sector, you'd only refer to it as simply "Sector 14".

Of course that still leaves the question of what a Narn "Quadrant" is.

As for the B3 logo, I know exactly where it came from since it happens to be one of mine.
It's based on a scan taken from the old B5 official mag which I think is also the source of the idea that the logos of B1, 2 & 3 cropped up in 'WWoE'. Though I don't have the mag itself to confirm that (someone eles gave me the logo scan.)

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Of course that still leaves the question of what a Narn "Quadrant" is.

47, of course.

 

[Mistral]

Of course that still leaves the question of what a Narn "Quadrant" is.

47, of course.

Jeez, what, did you attend American public school or something? 42, of course.

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Of course that still leaves the question of what a Narn "Quadrant" is.

47, of course.

Jeez, what, did you attend American public school or something? 42, of course.

Actually I did.

 

[Candlelight]

• In B2, Major Krantz says that Zathras suddenly appeared in the middle of a conference room after a time-flash. Here, Zathras is caught by security guards while rummaging through a box of equipment.
• The B2 scene where Delenn puts her hand on Sinclair's shoulder and says that they have to go, shows her wearing a red robe. In this episode, she is wearing dark brown. Also, the computer voice announcing "Present time atmosphere now breathable" does not appear in WWE's version of this scene. (We never find out what the computer was talking about in B2 when it mentioned the atmosphere being breathable.)
• When 'The One', clearly wounded, appears at the end of B2, there are grunts of pain coming from its suit - in a male voice. In WWE, we learn that this is Delenn, and so we should have heard a female voice.
• In B2, according to Zathras, Babylon 4's motion through time was stopped by The One so that the station's original crew could evacuate. However, in WWE, the station appears in 2258 accidentally, when Major Krantz orders the powering up of the fusion reactor. Also, the idea of faking a reactor accident to get the crew away was Ivanova's, not any of the versions of The One.
• WWE shows that Major Krantz knew of the explosion of the Shadow fusion bomb, and the presence of possibly hostile intruders aboard his station. He does not mention any of this to Sinclair in B2.
• Another inconsistency to consider is if Babylon 5 is to be destroyed by the Shadows 8 days from War Without End, then how can Garibaldi have the hair that he had in season 1 when most of it was lost by season 3?

Inconsistencies from Wikipedia. I think the presence of hostile intruders could be chalked up to Zathras, and so he didn't think to mention any one else.

The one about Garibaldi's hair is just silly.

 

[Reverend]

I wouldn't put too much stock in those Wikipedia lists, most of them border on nitpicking and hair-splitting.

Still, if you absolutely MUST account for every last detail, then why not have the events in 'Babylon Squared' be the result of the same alternate timeline we saw in 'WWoE', where the shadows have boarded B5, Sheridan, Ivanova and Garibaldi are dead and Sinclair & Delenn escape on the last shuttle out. That should account for most of the consistencies.

As for the hair, that's an easy one. In the alternate timeline, he never drank from that bottle.

 

[Lindley]

The fundamental problem with a predestination paradox is that it's contrary to free will. So I choose to think that while the loop always happens, there's nothing to stop it from happening a slightly different way each time.

Of course, that isn't entirely meaningful either, since "each time" doesn't make sense to talk about for something that only happens once.

Unless you get the time-travel-as-universe-crossover theory set involved.....but that's just a pain.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Reverend, Babylon Squared takes place before there even is an alternate timeline. The split off point doesn't occur until WWE.

 

[Reverend]

I was referring to the "time of origin" of Zathras, Delenn & Sinclair. That is at some point after B5 is destroyed they go back and steal B4, which would make what we saw in WWoE the second go around.

 

[Nerroth]

As an aside, the Mongoose RPG has one of its sourcebooks give B4 the Minbari name of Intiera'zhe (Star of Hope) - but are there any novels or other works which use that name, or offer an alternative?

 

[Reverend]

Not as far as I know, the only other name I've heard for it was the Tak'cha name from 'In Valen's Name' - "Ende X'Ton." I think it meant "Lost Station" or some such.
I honestly wouldn't put any stock in what the RPGs say; I think JMS refereed to them as "licensed fan fiction".

 

[Ryan Thomas Riddle]

Whatever the Minbari name for the station is, I'm sure it involves the suffix and prefix "zha" (the future) in it somehow. Like Entil'zha (one who creates the future or keeper of the future) or Z'ha'Dum (death of the future) or isil'zha (changing the future).

 

[JoeD80]

I was referring to the "time of origin" of Zathras, Delenn & Sinclair. That is at some point after B5 is destroyed they go back and steal B4, which would make what we saw in WWoE the second go around.

They go before Babylon 5 is destroyed. They received the message from Ivanova in the future saying that the station was about to be destroyed...but that was still eight days away when everyone went to steal Babylon 4. The alternate timeline becomes their timeline if they fail at getting the B4 station to the proper time, but the attempt is still before B5 is destroyed. Then if they fail, Garibaldi has to rig the fusion reactors and Ivanova makes the last stand at C&C. Somewhere Joe talked about the timelines and described it as "two possibilities collapsing in to one" rather than a second chance at the same events.

 

[David cgc]

The alternate timeline becomes their timeline if they fail at getting the B4 station to the proper time, but the attempt is still before B5 is destroyed.

I wonder how that works out. No Babylon 4 in the past means no Valen, so the Minbari aren't going to come out as strong as they did in the last Shadow War. If the Earth-Minbari War happens, then there's nothing special about Sinclair, and Delenn won't find an excuse to stop the war. If the Earth-Minbari War doesn't happen, there's no impetus to form the Babylon Project, much less will there be enough anti-alien sentiment for Clark and his associated sympathizers to take over (which they had to do, since Ivanova was wearing the Minbari uniform). Maybe the War happened, and was suitably devastating for Earth, but since the Minbari weren't so ridiculously superior in that timeline, they were more receptive to attempts to stop the war (or, if you want to be really crazy, maybe Lennon's secret peace summit worked... shit, no, that couldn't be because there aren't any Rangers without Valen).

Why did I have to go and start thinking about this?

 

[Reverend]

I was referring to the "time of origin" of Zathras, Delenn & Sinclair. That is at some point after B5 is destroyed they go back and steal B4, which would make what we saw in WWoE the second go around.

They go before Babylon 5 is destroyed. They received the message from Ivanova in the future saying that the station was about to be destroyed...but that was still eight days away when everyone went to steal Babylon 4. The alternate timeline becomes their timeline if they fail at getting the B4 station to the proper time, but the attempt is still before B5 is destroyed. Then if they fail, Garibaldi has to rig the fusion reactors and Ivanova makes the last stand at C&C. Somewhere Joe talked about the timelines and described it as "two possibilities collapsing in to one" rather than a second chance at the same events.

Actually the branch in the timeline must have occurred when the allies of the shadows successfully nuked B4, as that's the only way B5 would have been built without Valen taking B4 back in time. How the Babylon Project could exist at all without there being a Valen and a Sinclair detecting triluminary is a mystery. Indeed the very existence of Delenn (a descendent of Valen) in the alternate timeline shows that he must have existed...somehow. Grr. Bloody causality loops.

 

[JoeD80]

Indeed the very existence of Delenn (a descendent of Valen) in the alternate timeline shows that he must have existed...somehow. Grr. Bloody causality loops.

Wait...Zatrhas will be Valen and go back in time. Zathras clean up everyone mess. Poor Zathras always clean up and no one appreciate

 

[Candlelight]

Doesn't Sinclair tell the shuttles to stay 18 kilometres away and wait for their signal in Babylon Squared, but 2.5km in War Without End?