Aviation Geeks unite?! Anybody else care about planes here?

[Marc]

one of the stories about the F-104 was how sharp the leading edges of the wing were.

when I saw the F-104 at the air museum in Trenton Ontario I had to check for myself. either the things had been smoothed out of the public safety or the stories were exaggerated.

 

[Santaman]

They probably had the protection guards fitted.

from Wikipedia
"The new wing design was extremely thin, with a thickness-to-chord ratio of only 3.36% and an aspect ratio of 2.45. The wing's leading edges were so thin (.016 in; 0.41 mm) that they were a hazard to ground crews. Hence, protective guards were installed on them during maintenance."

Lockheed F-104 Starfighter - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There's a picture of the wing and it's indeed sharp looking..

File:View of F-104 Wing.jpg - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Another aircraft from that time is almost the anti F-104 because it actually has wings the Mirage III, the first European aircraft to be able to sustain Mach 2.

Dassault Mirage III - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Personally I think it's a very nice looking aircraft, haven't been able to see one up close though.
The Mirage III was an export success for the French and of course there's a really long list of variants like the Mirage 5 which started out as a very barebones version of the Mirage III but then was made in all kinds of versions as well.

Dassault Mirage 5 - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The various Mirages were featured in a well known comic series.

Tanguy et Laverdure - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Marc]

They probably had the protection guards fitted.

nope.

Another aircraft from that time is almost the anti F-104 because it actually has wings the Mirage III, the first European aircraft to be able to sustain Mach 2.

Australia flew the Mirage III after the Sabres and before the Hornets. At one point there were some stored at Woomera in the very far north of South Australia but have probably long since been scrapped.

At least they got stored after coming out of service, a number of the F-111s got buried.

 

[Santaman]

Weird that they burried the F-111, really nice aircraft, would be nice to have them in a museum.

Was quite a troublesome design with a lot of firsts, variable geometry wings etc, also the early engines weren't very good and the weight and cost kept creeping up but the later versions were quite good.

 

[Candleicious Ghost]

Weird that they burried the F-111, really nice aircraft, would be nice to have them in a museum.

Was quite a troublesome design with a lot of firsts, variable geometry wings etc, also the early engines weren't very good and the weight and cost kept creeping up but the later versions were quite good.

I believe we have one on display at an air museum here in Adelaide

 

[John Clark]

The various Mirages were featured in a well known comic series.

Tanguy et Laverdure - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Never read the comics - but saw the film (Skyfighters/Les Chevaliers du ciel).

Had a model kit of the 3, the F1 and the Kfir back in the day. (Along with the F104 - bought at that airshow if I remember correctly)

 

[Marc]

Weird that they burried the F-111, really nice aircraft, would be nice to have them in a museum.

Was quite a troublesome design with a lot of firsts, variable geometry wings etc, also the early engines weren't very good and the weight and cost kept creeping up but the later versions were quite good.

There are a number in musuems (Paul Stewart has youtube video on in Queensland) but it was a security requirement from the US (so $deity knows what will happen the F-35s leave service).

It was only the fuselage that was buried, the wings and tails were recycled.

Burial was used because of the material likes asbestoo in the aircraft complicating the process to dismantle them.

Australia buried 23 F-111 strike aircraft after the Pig’s retirement. Here’s why. - The Aviation Geek Club

Australia buried 23 F-111 strike aircraft after the Pig’s retirement. Here’s why.

theaviationgeekclub.com

It was also tainted by the Americans using pressure and bribery to get other countries to sign up for the F-111 so that aircraft like the TSR-2 never got to show what they could do.

 

[Santaman]

@John Clark I've read the comics and saw the film ages ago. of course they used the Mirage 2000 for it which is also a very nice aircraft.
Pity the Dutch got the F35 and not the Rafale or the Gripen..

TSR-2 would have been a marvelous aircraft, could out accelerate the Lightning which is already a very fast aircraft, it also could supercruise which would give it an excellent range.

So I guess the only country to have its own design would be again France with the Mirage IV, it was its main nuclear strategic bomber and reconaissance aircraft for a long time, and again it's a beautiful aircraft, no idea if the French do it on purpose but the whole Mirage series of aircraft are just very nice to look at.

Dassault Mirage IV - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Yeah.. 'murica and bribes... influence influence influence..

 

[John Clark]

Liked the look of the 4000 too, but haven't had models of that or the Rafale - kept meaning to get that one. I did have a Gripen way back when though as it's a longtime since I've been to an airshow, I haven't seen either the Rafale or Gripen in person.

 

[Marc]

Liked the look of the 4000 too, but haven't had models of that or the Rafale - kept meaning to get that one. I did have a Gripen way back when though as it's a longtime since I've been to an airshow, I haven't seen either the Rafale or Gripen in person.

Canada is looking a by Gripens and redusing it's order the for the F-35.

Don't know if they ever considered the Rafale.

 

[Santaman]

Yes, they briefly considered Rafale but at that time the world was a very different place.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rafale#Canada

Rafale is also a larger, heavier and more complex aircraft and more expensive of course, but it has two engines which might be an advantage, but who knows what will get on the table, both aircraft are fine.
Besides the aircraft itself there are industrial and political benefits to be considered like building the aircraft in Canada creating jobs and so on.

 

[The Salt Umpire]

A new Animarchy about Soviet jet aircraft dropped today

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[Marc]

if Canada doesn't buy the full order for the F-35s it's the Grippen that's on the table and Saab has often lots of local benefts

Going back to the F-104, lockheed designed a succesor designated as the CL-1200 Lancer. They planed to carry over a lot of components and design aspects thinking countries would go with it as natural successor because of the similarities (similar to boeing with the 737-Maxx years later).

In fact they planned to use to return F-104 airframes as the basis for the two prototypes.

It was first proposed for an export fighter compeition and lost out to the F-5B (the other aircraft I need to look but appears to be derivative of the F7 Corsair II/A7 Crusader if I've got my models right).

Then the USAF wasn't interested cos they wanted this big new twin engine/twin tail fighter form McDonnell-Douglas.

But in the end it went nowhere and for several very big interconnected reasons.

The company was in big cacat finacially and who's going to want to deal with some-one who could bust and leave without an aircraft or the parts needed to keep it in the air.

One of the reasons for the dire finances was the 100s for millions in bribes.

Bribes that were paid to get countries to buy lockheed aircraft where there was little to no actual demand.


So the TLDR was no-one wanted to the CL-1200 cos they'd never real wanted the F-104 but it had only sold as many units because of bribery and corruption

Whoops.

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[Santaman]

The F-7 was indeed updated and upgraded into the YA-7F but only two were built.

Vought YA-7F - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The F5 was quite a success, we had our own version the NF-5A and it was later developed into the F-20 Tigershark with only one but vastly more powerfull engine.
Everything was however not going beyond prototypes because the next new jet was the F-16..

I hope Canada gets the Grippen.

 

[Marc]

One I hadn't heard of the CAC CA-23 which was an Australian attempt to built it's own jet fighter in the early 50s.

Design looks reminiscent of the Mig-21 but it's actually a twin engine aircraft initilly intended to use the Rolls-Royce Nene then the Avon.

Seem the U.K prefered Australia use on their designs (which turned out rather mediocre) but it backfired and Australia went with the F-86 (built under licence) and the Mirage III etc, basically not going with British aircraft in large numbers.

Maybe shouldn't feel too sorry for them over the TSR-2 after all

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