Avengers Vs. X-Men -- Speculation, Spoilers, and Discussion

[Allyn Gibson]

Out today, Avengers Vs. X-Men #4!

The battle of hero vs. hero rages on! With Wolverine abandoned by the Avengers, where will he stand in the battle for Hope?

Some thoughts.

This may be the worst issue yet.

Set aside the polar bears in Antarctica (hint: there are no polar bears in Antarctica).

The issue commits an unforgiveable sin. It's boring, and even Hickman's scripting can't save this.

We actually have some narrative momentum. We see the Avengers' Space Team confront the Phoenix Force. We see Hope make the case for why she's ready to host the Phoenix. We see Cyclops and Captain America (separately) make their moves. And we see Wolverine make the choice about which side he's on.

The problem is that none of it connects. Four issues in, and I still don't feel like anything's at stake. I just can't care. And the issue giving us a series of splash pages to show the scope of the battle between the Avengers and the X-Men doesn't help; this is wasted pages.

I know that issue #5 is where everything's supposed to change, but if this is building up to something cataclysmic at the end of issue #5 then this issue failed completely.

There's also an issue of AVX Vs. out today.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Why, Allyn, it sounds to me like your describing a Marvel "Event". You know what the really scary thing is? AvX is light-years better than Fear Itself was.

The tie-in issues were, once again, better reads than the main event. (Which is another thing that Marvel Events seem to have in common.) The conclusions drawn by Apex in Tabula Rasa about the Namor/Thing re-match (Not to mention Namor and Grimms reaction to those conclusions) in Uncanny X-Men is by far the best character moment in this thing so far. I'll comment more on those later.

I didn't even look at "VS". Why bother?

 

[Saga]

some of the character appearances confuse me. does She Hulk showing up in Tabula Rasa take place before or after current events in X-Men Legacy? and does Protector betraying the Avengers take place before or after the apparent rebirth of Captain Mar-Vell?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

some of the character appearances confuse me. does She Hulk showing up in Tabula Rasa take place before or after current events in X-Men Legacy? and does Protector betraying the Avengers take place before or after the apparent rebirth of Captain Mar-Vell?

Bleeding Cool has pointed out in several recent articles that the timelines of the various issues don't match up. Marvel editorial is dropping the ball and letting inconsistencies through. For example, the Captain America/Gambit fight in Avengers Vs. X-Men #4 doesn't match up with the version of the fight shown in VS. #2.

 

[Hound of UIster]

some of the character appearances confuse me. does She Hulk showing up in Tabula Rasa take place before or after current events in X-Men Legacy? and does Protector betraying the Avengers take place before or after the apparent rebirth of Captain Mar-Vell?

Bleeding Cool has pointed out in several recent articles that the timelines of the various issues don't match up. Marvel editorial is dropping the ball and letting inconsistencies through. For example, the Captain America/Gambit fight in Avengers Vs. X-Men #4 doesn't match up with the version of the fight shown in VS. #2.

Marvel editorial has essentially been gutted due to recent budget cuts so they have too few people editing too many books and enormous pressure to deliver more profits from the direct market.

For the AvsX main story creatively, I think it really shows that attempts at having multiple writers doing one story, but not participating in the scripting of each issue really just doesn't work. DC had a similar failure with Countdown. The only real critical success using multiple writers was with 52 and there it was four different writers plotting and writing each issue every week.

 

[DarthPipes]

The issue sucked. The storyline, characterizations, and motivations are paper thin and we barely see any fighting. Whatever fighting we see is disorganized. I seem to say this a lot but Marvel should be embarrassed to put out this garbage and call it an event.

About Logan...

Spoiler: Logan's Choice...

He's a fucking traitor. It's bad enough that Marvel has ruined him over the past ten years by overexposing him and stripping the character of everything that made him cool. But betraying the X-Men and siding with the Avengers is inexcuseable.

The A vs X tie-ins continue to be far superior to the shit main title.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

About Logan...

Spoiler: Logan's Choice...

He's a fucking traitor. It's bad enough that Marvel has ruined him over the past ten years by overexposing him and stripping the character of everything that made him cool. But betraying the X-Men and siding with the Avengers is inexcuseable.

Spoiler: All I can figure...

The reveal of Wolverine's loyalties at the end of issue #4 had to be part of a plan. That's the only thing that makes sense to me. That Cap and Wolverine had to have a brutal throwdown to make it look legit that the Avengers had abandoned him and he was on his own. That would explain the mind-boggling stupidity of the Cap/Wolverine fight in issue #3. But while that would suffice to fool any casual observer, I'm surprised that would fool Emma Frost.

There is some logic to AVX. It's a stupid logic, but it's still logic.

 

[Aldo]

I just bought Round 4 today, I really hope it's not as bad as you guys are saying, since I haven't read it yet.

When I picked it up today, the clerk asked me how I was enjoying it so far. Since I'm not used to making small talk with people I don't know, I muttered something about how Spidey was only being used as comic relief. However it got me thinking, and I think my main problem with it is that it feels like the plot is dictating how the character's are behaving. But then again, I'm sure I read these complaints earlier in this thread, so it's nothing new.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Uncanny X-Men 12 was mostly just a deeper look at the battle in Tabula Rasa and the teams that went there. We see a lot more of the Thing/Namor re-match and this gives us our best bit of humor in story so far.

Spoiler: Namor/Thing fight

Last issue's Red Hulk/Colossus fight and this issue's Thing/Namor fight both made for better reads than any of the fights in "vs".

Avengers 26 -- OK, so the events in Kree space in Secret Avengers take place before the events happening in Kree space in this issue, and all of it happens before Thor's return to Earth in AvX 4. Confusing much? I can't complain too much as I loved seeing Walt Simonson drawing Thor again. Frankly, I would gladly pay $3.99 just to see Simonson draw 20-pages of Thor sitting at the laundromat waiting for his cape to dry. And I bet the cape would look awesome.

Avengers Academy 30-- Comparisons to Japanese internment camps during WW2 are raised and largely dismissed as the Academy's mutant students feel compelled to choose a side. X-23, in particular, makes a hard choice as she chooses on principle to side with the X-Kids who never really accepted her over the Academy kids who have. Meanwhile, Sebastian Shaw makes his escape.

 

[hyzmarca]

Looks like Storm has made her decision early,

I've read that three times now, and I still have no idea why Storm leaves like that. "You said the word 'Phoenix,' so I'm outta here, bub!"

Storm has some sense. Phoenix is a top-tier cosmic entity. If your name isn't Galactus, Eternity, Death, or the Living Tribunal, then you don't stand a chance against her. And among those four the Living tribunal is the only one who is guaranteed a win.

Dr. Strange channeling Eternity might have a chance, but Dr. Strange isn't in top form these days and even if he was you really wouldn't want to be in the same dimension as that fight, much less the same planet.



But really, any plan that involves pissing off someone who can trivially destroy planets is utterly insane. Who the hell signs off on a plan that can be summed up as "do something that will make the planet-killing super-god very angry?"

Go back further to Bishop blaming the concentration camp he was raised in on Hope.

Which doesn't make the slightest bit of sense since M-Day never happened in the timeline Bishop came from and Hope was never born.

^Which goes to show just how far Cyclops has fallen that Magneto is even now part of the X-Men.

Magneto's been part of the X-Men off and on since the 70s. He usually joins up during his reasonable phases and does a decent job until something happens to start him on a world conquest kick again.

The medal of Honour can only be given to an American.

By accepting that medal, Cyclops is suggesting that he is not a utopian or THE Utopian.

I still can't believe that Utopia is just Asteroid M with a new paint job.

The medal of honor is a military decoration. One doesn't need to be a citizen to receive it, but one does need to be a member of the United States armed forces. There are a fair number of foreigners serving in the US Air Force, Marines, Navy, and Army. They're all eligible for the Medal of Horor, assuming that they do something that deserves it.

 

[Turtletrekker]

When I picked it up today, the clerk asked me how I was enjoying it so far. Since I'm not used to making small talk with people I don't know, I muttered something about how Spidey was only being used as comic relief.

Aldo, you might appreciate the solicitation for issue 9...

Spoiler: Issue 9

ISSUE #9 - JASON AARON (w) • ADAM KUBERT (A)
Cover by JIM CHEUNG
Variant cover by RYAN STEGMAN
Avengers Team & X-Men Team Variants also available
KUBERT VARIANT also available
PROMO VARIANT also available
STEGMAN SKETCH VARIANT also available
• Their numbers dwindling, the Avengers stage a daring raid on the X-Men’s prison to rescue their captive members—and you won’t believe where it is!
• Alliances begin to change as the nature of the Phoenix becomes apparent!
• And in the end, it all comes down to Spider-Man!
32 PGS./Rated T+ …$3.99

 

[Aldo]

I did'nt really believe what I said to the clerk, I was just trying to come up with some kind of small talk, lol.

Suffice to say, I have gotten the fourth issue and read it, and what everyone is saying seems to be correct. It was pretty underwhelming, but it seems things are going to pick up next issue, so I'm going to stay with it. Hell what am I saying, they could have an issue of Cap cutting his toe-nails and I'd still pick it up, because I'm determined to see this one through.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Hell what am I saying, they could have an issue of Cap cutting his toe-nails and I'd still pick it up, because I'm determined to see this one through.

My cubicle neighbor wanted to know why I was still reading AVX (he bailed with issue #1), and I said that it was like watching a train wreck -- you know it's going to be bad and you shouldn't watch but you just can't look away.

 

[Aldo]

I wouldn't call it a trainwreck. I do feel though, that they're really altering the character's a lot to fit the needs of the plot, and not the other way around, which is a real shame.

 

[Turtletrekker]

Hell what am I saying, they could have an issue of Cap cutting his toe-nails and I'd still pick it up, because I'm determined to see this one through.

My cubicle neighbor wanted to know why I was still reading AVX (he bailed with issue #1), and I said that it was like watching a train wreck -- you know it's going to be bad and you shouldn't watch but you just can't look away.

For me, it's the culmination of so many plot threads going all the way back to Avengers: Disassembled and House of M. No matter how the story is being told, I want to know how it ends.

Allyn, it's a shame that that this is the Marvel project that you decided to take the plunge on. There is so much good stuff being published by Marvel right now (most of it priced $2.99--Fantastic Four, Daredevil, Journey into Mystery, Winter Soldier, Avengers Academy) that it's sad that this event is the only impression of Marvel product that you're getting.

And I will say again-- AvX is light years better than Fear Itself was.

 

[JD]

With stuff like this or Civil War, Secret Invasion, ect. do you have to read the main series or could you just read the series specific tie-in issues and still understand everything?

 

[Turtletrekker]

The only new AvX related book this week was Secret Avengers 28, continuing the first half of the space team's mission and the return of Mar-Vell. It almost seems redundant to read this book right now. Thanks to the story currently running in Avengers, we already know essentially how this story will end. And if people were hoping for a permanent return for Mar-Vell, the ad for the Carol Danvers-centric Captain Marvel book starting in July should dash those hopes quite nicely.

That said, it is nice to see Mar-Vell back for one last go-round before Carol takes up the mantle. And by all indicators so far, this is the real Mar-Vell, resurrected by the Phoenix. I'm not clear on what the Kree's plan for the Phoenix involves. Either the Kree Supreme Intelligence think that the Phoenix will revive the Kree's stagnant DNA (Not to dis-similar to what Cyclops is hoping for), or he is pulling a Branch Davidian on his followers.

 

[Admiral_Young]

Spidey has generally been used in Bendis' Avengers work as comedic relief and he isn't a major part of Avengers Vs X-Men. In fact Marvel was holding meetings a couple of months back as reported by Newsarama or CBR about what to do with Spider-Man, the Fantastic Four in the aftermath of AVX.

 

[Turtletrekker]

With stuff like this or Civil War, Secret Invasion, ect. do you have to read the main series or could you just read the series specific tie-in issues and still understand everything?

It honestly depends from book-to-book and event-to-event.
In Fear Itself, Avengers Academy and Journey into Mystery had good (some might say better than the actual event) stand-alone stories that take place in the midst of the larger event. Other books, such as Avengers and New Avengers tended to require knowlege of the main story. That actually applies to any Bendis-written any event tie-in issue of Avengers.

So far in AvX, the best stand-alone tie-in series (IMHO, of course) have been Avengers Academy and X-Men: Legacy (And I realized as I typed that that they are both written by Christos Gage).

Are there any specific tie-in issues that you have your eye on?

 

[Hound of UIster]

With stuff like this or Civil War, Secret Invasion, ect. do you have to read the main series or could you just read the series specific tie-in issues and still understand everything?

Civil War, not really. The main story was all that was necessary.

Secret Invasion. Absolutely. Many of the details such as the motivations of the Skrulls, how they had infiltrated the Earth and the important battles were happening in other battles.