Avatar got you blue?

[Lapis Exilis]

Well, there's usually a little of 'this world used to be awesome, but you screwed it up' - Eden, original sin, and so on.

True. You gotta love a religion that thinks nothing is ever so bad that you can't add some guilt to it and make it worse.

Which oddly enough is quite close to the sentiment of Avatar, which gives us a sort of Eden which man's original sin is fouling up; with the Na'vi serving as unfallen humanity still in grace.

Yeah, Avatar borrows a good deal of Eden imagery, but I think it is flattering the Noble Savage cliche by calling it "unfallen humanity still in grace". Though no doubt that notion has been tied up in such fetishising from the start.

Which reminds me of something I"ve been meaning to ask for quite a while.

Calling this Eden "Pandora". Doesn't it seem that had to be deliberate and mean something? If not in this tale then as foreshadowing of upcoming sequels. Some fan speculation around here has posited that a sequel might involve humans returning to find a way to jack into that groovy Eywa power, perhaps thus unleashing horrors upong the universe?

Hm. Something doesn't feel right when I look at a pastor's sermon and think, 'Hey, I could have done more with that.'

On that note, the Vatican thinks Avatar sucks.

I'd agree about the pastor, who does a pretty glib bounce off Avatar to plug Heaven. As for the Vatican's review - I have to agree with a lot of it (shallow, not much behind the pretty pictures). Which is hilarious given the rest of the stuff like:

"Nature is no longer a creation to defend, but a divinity to worship," the radio said.
Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi said that while the movie reviews are just that — film criticism, not theological pronouncements — they do reflect Pope Benedict XVI's views on the dangers of turning nature into a "new divinity."... He said such notions "open the way to a new pantheism tinged with neo-paganism,"

which I couldn't be more wholeheartedly in favor of. In fact the only part of Avatar that moved me was the communing with Eywa and Mother Nature Fights Back stuff - for precisely the reasons the Pope doesn't like!

But I also find exotic worlds every day in the inner lives of the people around me

Ah, so you're a stalker then.

Yes. That is exactly what I meant when I said that.

 

[Kegg]

Calling this Eden "Pandora". Doesn't it seem that had to be deliberate and mean something? If not in this tale then as foreshadowing of upcoming sequels.

I thought it had a pretty clear application in this film - the Pandora's Box was basically screwing around on the planet, which resulted in the backlash that destroyed most of RDA's equipment, soldiers, and Quaritch himself.

Which leaves Polyphemus, the gast giant, as far as significant names goes. I'm guessing it was so named because Polyphemus in greek mythology was a giant, the cyclops Odysseus blinded. I think it's been implied we'll be seeing other moons of Polyphemus or planets in Alpha Centauri for the next film, so I wonder how that factors in.

Some fan speculation around here has posited that a sequel might involve humans returning to find a way to jack into that groovy Eywa power, perhaps thus unleashing horrors upong the universe?

That's actually the most interesting idea I've heard as far as possible sequels go. I was pretty much just expecting a movie where the humans return with much more force, but harnessing Eywa for other purposes is an interesting sci-fi idea. Either way I suspect the mythology around Eywa will be developed - it does clearly serve the purpose that the force did in Star Wars, grounding this nascent sci-fi franchise in meaningful mysticism.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Calling this Eden "Pandora". Doesn't it seem that had to be deliberate and mean something? If not in this tale then as foreshadowing of upcoming sequels.

I thought it had a pretty clear application in this film - the Pandora's Box was basically screwing around on the planet, which resulted in the backlah that destroyed most of RDA's equipment, soldiers, and Quaritch himself.

But, keep in mind that Pandora's box is the Eden story before Eden. Originally the Eden story wasn't about Original Sin - to Judaism it is simply a tale of how death and suffering came into the world. Pandora's box tells the same tale. If it's just about payback - that's not really tapping the full potential of the mythic reference.

Which leaves Polyphemus, the gast giant, as far as significant names goes. I'm guessing it was so named because Polyphemus in greek mythology was a giant, the cyclops Odysseus blinded. I think it's been implied we'll be seeing other moons of Polyphemus or planets in Alpha Centauri for the next film, so I wonder how that factors in.

Polyphemus also called down the righteous wrath of his father, Mighty God of the Sea, Poseidon upon Odysseus - so that's got a bit of a parallel in Eywa fighting back.

That's actually the most interesting idea I've heard as far as possible sequels go. I was pretty much just expecting a movie where the humans return with much more force, but harnessing Eywa for other purposes is an interesting sci-fi idea. Either way I suspect the mythology around Eywa will be developed - it does clearly serve the purpose that the force did in Star Wars, grounding this nascent sci-fi franchise in meaningful mysticism.

Eh, we'll see. A lot of the time people just pick these names because they sound ancient and epic and nothing is made of the mythic reference. The resonance/contrast of Pandora to Eden just seemed too obvious to be ignored.

 

[bryce]

What's so ugly about a hygienic, convenient world not littered with scorpions and giant monsters?

Say that when you are walking through a slum or abandoned part of the rust belt* or filth ridden alley in New York that smells like trash & pee.

Humans can create great beauty...soaring architecture...but sometimes we just create ugly utility...for ever Notre Dame, there's an abandoned WalMart and adjoining crumbling broken glass-filled parking lot.

We create vast gray landscapes and rows of strip malls....

*(Though, I have a photographer friend that has b&w photos of old rusting cars & crumbling barns that she's taken that are things of great beauty...the way *she* captures them - so maybe it's all about how you look at it...)

 

[Brutal Strudel]

I'll admit I've pondered the idea of going to Pandora. Invariably, though, I imagined myself being in some sort of hover tour bus - the very idea of stepping out into the natural environment just strikes me as repellent. It's very pretty to look at, but it's still an untamed rainforest, and must be very discomfiting to live in even ignoring all the monsters. Just imagine the hygiene, for one thing.. yecch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q95rcdH0huc

 

[Myasishchev]

What's so ugly about a hygienic, convenient world not littered with scorpions and giant monsters?

Say that when you are walking through a slum or abandoned part of the rust belt* or filth ridden alley in New York that smells like trash & pee.

Humans can create great beauty...soaring architecture...but sometimes we just create ugly utility...for ever Notre Dame, there's an abandoned WalMart and adjoining crumbling broken glass-filled parking lot.

We create vast gray landscapes and rows of strip malls....

*(Though, I have a photographer friend that has b&w photos of old rusting cars & crumbling barns that she's taken that are things of great beauty...the way *she* captures them - so maybe it's all about how you look at it...)

Nasty urban landscapes are nature. They occur in the absence of active human maintenance, and no place without active human maintenance is liveable.

But, in any event, I'd rather walk around in an abandoned WalMart parking lot than in a primordial forest. Glass-filled is all the better, because the feral dogs will cripple themselves when they chase me.

Within civilization, the only thing I have to fear are fellow humans. And though we're a rotten bunch, we're at least half-tame and don't ordinarily try to eat one another. Plus, we're not poisonous.

Why is green automatically better than gray?

Don't get me wrong--I recognize that a healthy civilization is also a sustainable one, and that ruining local ecology without a thought or care is a bad mistake. This is, indeed, part of the reason why I stopped eating mammals--aside from the prinicipal rationale that mechanized slaughter of reasonably intelligent, feeling things is rather bad, the ecological externalities to cow and pig farming are too large to justify. I'm also quite happy that the human population looks set to begin reducing around 2050.

Nevertheless, I'd sooner see a tree cut down if it's land that could be better used, for housing or commerce.

 

[Kegg]

Having been to the countryside and spent months there, my one most indelible memory is a rotting hedgehog, which lay there for days.

I like littered trash better, honestly.

 

[Hyperspace05]

What, you expected some animal recycling unit to come by and pick up the dead animal?

Sure, nature has its rough edges. It isn't just pretty flowers.

 

[23skidoo]

Going back to the original discussion, having now seen Avatar I don't really feel any sort of depression or "wishing I could go back there". Actually I found the film far less "immersive" than I was led to believe. Pretty pictures, yes, but not much more than that.

I did find myself actually a bit pissed off at certain aspects of the film. Rather than being immersed in it I found myself cataloging how many other films and stories were being ripped off. And the "Ugly American" stereotype - or maybe "Ugly Human" in this case - was delivered by sledgehammer. It spoiled other aspects of the film for me. And I should point out I generally refuse to "overthink" movies, especially escapist films. I often flame those who do. But I found it unavoidable; even though I went in expecting to love the film, I came away feeling somewhat different.

24 hours after seeing the film, while acknowledging it as technically brilliant, I am actually fast moving towards the opinion of it being the biggest cinematic disappointment I've ever seen. And I actually didn't expect that reaction at all. Not to mention the fact the reaction as intensified since I saw the movie. So maybe instead of "Avatar got you blue" we should asking "Avatar got you seeing red?"

Alex

 

[Myasishchev]

Hey, wait a minute--"Avatar got you blue."

I just got that.

 

[zakkrusz]

Greenery, you say? Move to Minnesota. We got lots of that.