Atheism, and "Bread and Circuses"

[CorporalCaptain]

Many atheists in this thread won't love their fellow post-ers without pre-approval of their beliefs.

I really don't see any evidence that this is so. Your statement is both presumptuous and prejudiced.

I give MMO a tremendous amount of credit in the promotion of atheism

I already explicitly stated that American Atheists does not speak for atheists. By extension, that would mean that Madalyn Murray O'Hair (whom I presume you mean by the initials MMO) didn't speak for all atheists when she was alive. Did you disbelieve me, or did you somehow accidentally skip over my posts?

If you believed me, then why assume that atheists generally agree with her positions. If not, then why not?

American Atheists has about 4,000 members. Assuming only 1 in 100 people in the world are atheists (a gross underestimate), there are over 3,000,000 atheists in the USA (assuming uniform distribution; no matter, the actual figure is larger) and over 60,000,000 atheists worldwide (again, the actual figure is larger). Does that put it into perspective how little weight American Atheists has in the atheist community?

From the Washington Post, earlier this year:

That challenge has potential pitfalls. American Atheists membership is 4,000, Silverman said — a small sliver of the 2.4 percent of Americans who identified as atheists in a 2012 survey by the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life. Less strident groups are larger: the Freedom from Religion Foundation claims more than 19,000 members, and the American Humanist Association claims 40,000.

A’forum to vent’

Phil Zuckerman, a professor of sociology at Pitzer College and an expert on secularism, said that while he applauds the passion and purpose of O’Hair’s acolytes, they do not represent mainstream atheism.

“There is a place for American Atheists, definitely, but clearly, most atheists are not angry, do not hate religion and do not need a forum to vent,” he said. “I think the fact that their numbers are so low shows that the strident, aggressive version of atheism is a distinct minority.”

The atheists I choose to associate with don't hold a person's religion against them. Their issue with religion only comes when people can't keep their religions to themselves.

When you repeatedly misrepresent people's positions, even after corrections and clarifications have been offered, don't be surprised if people aren't willing to interact on your terms.

 

[T'Bonz]

OK guys, let's keep this tied in with Bread and Circuses. General religion belongs in another forum.

 

[stj]

OK guys, let's keep this tied in with Bread and Circuses. General religion belongs in another forum.

We hear and obey, mistress.

Bread and Circuses illustrates a good point. Spock came to the wrong conclusion based on observation of the available facts. It wasn't until Uhura added in the missing fact, the missing piece of the puzzle, that those on the bridge realized they reached an erroneous conclusion about the sun/Son.

Again, it was Kirk and McCoy and Spock who all assumed the Sun was worshipped. It was Spock who found that puzzling. Chalk one up for "sciencey." It is a misreading of the episode to pretend that Spock comes off poorly. He especially does not engage in nonconsensual intercourse with a slave!

Another misreading of the episode takes McCoy's talk of Gabriel as a genuine religious reference. It was instead a foreshadowing of the temptation to power theme. McCoy's puckish desire to announce that he was the archangel Gabriel was not to legitimately preach, but to swindle the listeners. The joke was that they could land and pretend to be divine and enjoy the adulation. As I say, a foreshadowing.

Two hundred years from now, mankind could most likely think that what science teaches us today is outmoded and maybe even silly, just like we think about many scientific notions 200 years before us. I can't put my full faith in that. Nobody in this thread has solved all the mysteries of the universe, and collected all the pieces to the puzzle of our existence. Without the missing facts, anyone is prone to make an erroneous conclusion, just like sciency Spock.

The facts we already have rule out many erroneous conclusions, which includes the factual claims of every religion I know about. You're like a Scientologist claiming that further scientific advancement might confirm the existence of Xenu and Thetans. Even the changes in explanations for those facts (theories, that is) are exaggerated. In everyday life we still use Newtonian mechanics and it's over 300 years old!

Didn't science once inform us that the universe was infinite, and at other times limited, that the data shows the universe was expanding, and sometimes the conclusion is that it is contracting?

No, modern science has regarded this question as open. Individual scientists had (and have) strong ideas but there wasn't a consensus in the scientific community. And there still isn't agreement between proponents of an infinite multiverse and a finite universe! As I understand it, Aristotle thought he had logically proven a finite universe. At times his thought has been regarded as authoritative. But modern science has understood since at least Galileo (i.e., about 400 years ago!) that Aristotle, a notable pioneer in logic, esthetics, social science and biology, was far too dedicated to common sense to be a good physicist.

But as an act of Christian love towards you, let me remind you of the fate of Rosa Luxemburg. This atheist woman lived in Berlin in 1919, part of the Spartakusbund, a left wing organization. After the German revolution of 1918, the Spartakusbund like every other group was engaged in struggle to determine the nature of the new regime. As I understand it, Luxemburg discouraged an attempt to seize power, substituting instead a campaign to occupy newspaper offices, in an effort to reach the masses and gain majority support. In January, she was arrested by soldiers. She was beaten. Then one butted her in the head with his rifle. When she fell, he then shot her. Her body was weighted with wires at the hands and feet, then dumped in a canal.

The sequelae are happy. The unit that slew this woman was incorporated into the Sturmabteilung. The soldiers involved were mostly unpunished at all, the triggerman sentenced to maximum two years (if he ever served his time I don't know.) Sadly, when the Communists came to power, they revived the case and punished whom they could (no death penalty if I remember correctly.) But even this unhappy turn of events had a happy ending. After the reunification, the judge who targeted the heroic soldiers was herself punished for her hideous miscarriage of justice.

Happy thoughts!

 

[iguana_tonante]

Since T'Bonz asked, I'll drop it. Well, mostly.

So, I'm beginning to see more clearly now that the ancient astronaut theorist and the vicious gaytheist fanboy throngs are the ones to watch out for.

What the fuck.

[About Hypatia] I suppose that being lynched to death was not much of a rarity during antiquity, but when presented with such cases, I usually think "maybe she had it coming."

What. The. Fuck.

 

[1001001]

So, I'm beginning to see more clearly now that the ancient astronaut theorist and the vicious gaytheist fanboy throngs are the ones to watch out for.

I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish here, but that kind of comment is out of line.

Since T'Bonz asked, I'll drop it. Well, mostly.

So, I'm beginning to see more clearly now that the ancient astronaut theorist and the vicious gaytheist fanboy throngs are the ones to watch out for.

What the fuck.

[About Hypatia] I suppose that being lynched to death was not much of a rarity during antiquity, but when presented with such cases, I usually think "maybe she had it coming."

What. The. Fuck.

When the Boss says drop it...drop it.

Thanks.

 

[iguana_tonante]

 

[T'Bonz]

Seska, warning for the slur.

There is no place for slurs of any type on the BBS.

* *

Since T'Bonz asked, I'll drop it. Well, mostly.

When I say drop it, I MEAN drop it. I'm really trying not to throw a warning on you for ignoring that. I was trying to get the thread back on track and calm things down and you had to have the last word because you were pissed at no warnings.


If we miss something that should be handled, do what you eventually did, mod notify. And give it time - we sleep, have to do things IRL etc. But DO NOT ignore what we say. We don't say our things to be dicks, but to keep things from escalating and spiraling out of control.

I think this thread has gone on long enough.