Assorted Post Re-Watch Thoughts

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by Too Much Fun, Feb 2, 2011.

  1. Too Much Fun

    Too Much Fun Commodore Commodore

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    After completing my latest (third, I believe) re-watch of "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" since watching the series for the first time in 2008, I have a few questions and comments I'm hoping for some feedback on. Just a few things I feel like talking with fans about, from all seasons (though mostly the later ones)...

    * In "Looking for Par'Mach...", how the hell does Worf successfully win Quark's fight for him? Worf and Quark are not in the same room and Worf can't see Quark's opponent, so how can Quark come up with defensive and offensive moves in response to those of the opponent? I don't understand how Worf's mechanical, planned moves could actually be effective. The opponent could not possibly be that predictable.

    * How do people feel about the depiction of Vulcans in this series? Is this the only Star Trek series to depict them so negatively? I know Spock always had a bit of a smug sense of superiority towards humans, but it was all in good fun. I can't think of any other series where Vulcans were as blatantly hostile and even downright insulting towards humans and their emotional nature the way the Vulcans in "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" and "Field of Fire" were.

    * I used to think "In the Pale Moonlight" was overrated, but I take it back now. Watching it again, I was riveted from start to finish. Even knowing what was going to happen, I found the suspense awesome. I especially love that sequence where Sisko storms to Garak's shop wanting to absolutely annihilate him. Truly Garak's finest hour and my favourite use of a character I never loved as much as most DS9 fans.

    * I also feel differently about Damar now. The first few times I watched the show, I don't think I really cared about him until he became a hero towards the end of season 7. This time, I enjoyed the character from his first appearance to his last. His was just as entertaining as a jerk who antagonized Kira, Ziyal, and Weyoun while sucking up to Dukat as he was as a freedom fighter. I think it's neat how a character could be just as cool as a hero as he was as a villain. I don't think that happens very often.

    * One thing I'm quite sure I'll never change my mind about is that Kai Winn and Dukat seriously derail the series finale. One day I might just edit out their scenes (and all the crap with Sisko at the end) to make it a smoother watch. Dukat should never have appeared again after "Sacrifice of Angels" (a perfect exit for him, declaring that he forgives Sisko while rambling crazily) and I never liked Kai Winn in the first place. The only good thing about her was that people called her "Eminence" (I want someone to call me that someday :D) and the name of the book she was using (Kosst Amojen) sounds cool.

    * I still don't get the hate for "The Emperor's New Cloak". It's a very entertaining episode and I never found it offensively bad like many others do. The only things in it that really bothered me were how stupid mirror Garak was (I bet a lot of people hate it for that, since he's such a beloved character) and the presence of Vic Fontaine. Vic's presence makes no sense. How is him being a living, breathing soldier a plausible alternate version of a Sinatra Era Vegas lounge singer hologram? I think it's just a gratuitous cameo.

    - Watching it again, the episode finally convinced me (as DevilEyes has argued) that the alternate universe people aren't all that different from the regular universe people at their core...it's just that circumstances have warped their personalities. After all, Kira and Sisko have always been very passionate people, isn't it believable that in a more corrupt world they'd be more conniving and hedonistic? The lesbian thing at the end sort of contradicts this, though. While it doesn't bother me (I thought it was just a cute joke), I do agree on an objective level that it's cheesy and dumb.

    * I hope becoming the new Nagus means Rom can afford to get that damn crooked tooth fixed! I got so sick of looking at it. YUCK! :barf:

    * Shallow comment #2: Did anyone else love that Dabo girl M'Palla's outfit? That leaf design was so rad. It's too bad Leeta's clothing became so generic later on. The Dabo girl outfits were terrific. I liked M'palla's leaf thing on her face (facial tattoo?) as well.

    * Another thing about M'Palla: I was kind of bummed out that while a lot of the characters ended up having nice romantic relationships throughout the show, Quark never did, although it was implied the he could have (if he wanted to) with her, since she offered to come with him if he became the Nagus and comforted him when he thought Morn died. I don't know if she was just trying to get ahead and didn't really care about him, though. What does everyone else think? I bet most of you have never given it a second thought, but I'm asking now anyway.

    * I never thought this would happen, but I actually got annoyed at Jadzia Dax in "Change of Heart"! :eek: She really took the 'joking under any circumstances' thing too far when she was on the verge of death. Poor Worf being was seriously concerned about her and she kept trying to be a comedian. I actually wanted to yell "shut up!" at her. I still love her, though :adore:.

    * I think one of many signs that this was a great series is that even after watching it many times, one can still have new questions/thoughts/reactions. :)
     
  2. Admiral Shran

    Admiral Shran Admiral Admiral

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    It was my understanding the device being used allowed Worf to control Quark and see what he saw.

    I have to ask, how long has it been since you watched ENT?

    Agreed. :techman:

    I always wanted Quark to end up with someone. I personally would have preferred it if he, not Bashir, ended up with Ezri.
     
  3. Jono

    Jono Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I have no problem with it. I wouldn't group "Field of Fire" with "Take Me OUt to the Holosuite", the Vulcan in the former was a sick individual, broken by war and tragedy. Solok frankly was a douche just because he could be. I don't see it as a depiction of the Vulcans as a whole but just flawed individuals.

    There is the fact the major plot - the Alliance needing a cloaking device, flies in the face of what we saw in the second MU episode where Klingon and Cardassia ships were shown decloaking to capture Sisko and Miles so they could infiltrate Terok Nor.

    Also it really didn't add anything to the MU story and was unnecessary. It seemed more about having a mirror Ezri than anything else.
     
  4. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sometimes a great episode truly deserves the hype, and I do think that ItPM is an example of that. It will never grow old.

    I have mixed feelings about the Dukat/Winn/Pagh Wraith storyline. On the one hand, there are some serious problems with it, so I understand why it is loathed by certain fans. On the other hand, there are some things I really like about the concept, including the pairing of Dukat and Winn, who are natural allies in many respects, and of course very unnatural allies in others.

    DS9 is a great show to my mind partly because the writers tried to do a lot of different things and never stopped experimenting. There were doubtless a bunch of reasons for this. One was certainly a fruitless quest to recapture some of TNG's ratings glory, which was never to return. Another was the simple fact that a lot of very creative people worked on the show. And another was that TV as a whole was growing up while DS9 was on the air, becoming more sophisticated and less predictable, and the DS9 writers cared enough about the quality of their product to grow along with rest of the medium.

    Sometimes the results were pure awesomeness, while other ideas fell short of their full potential. The Dukat/Winn storyline in the final arc is definitely an example of the latter.

    Yep. There are better tv shows out there as far as overall quality is concerned, but there are few that I find as fascinating as DS9. It can be truly great and it can be truly awful, but at any rate it is very, very interesting ;)
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2011
  5. Quinton O'Connor

    Quinton O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    Thanks for posting, Too Much Fun. In case all the gushing I did in my apologetic post-rewatch thread didn't do a good enough job insinuating it, if there's one thing rewatching Deep Space Nine did for me it was convince me it's my favorite television series. But yes, it still has some blatant flaws, of course.

    I actually... didn't dislike the Dukat/Winn story, even in the finale. Although I still hate how they tried to make it feel all epic, that trip through the Fire Caves for them, with so little time to do so. And then Sisko just beams into the end or something.
     
  6. Saxman1

    Saxman1 Commodore Commodore

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    We just ended a re-watch of Voyager. My son (10) is insisting we do DS9 instead of Enterprise, which is up next in production order. We finished watching DS9 about a year ago and I think he's still feeling withdrawal, LOL! His favorites are TOS/TAS and DS9. He does NOT like TNG at all and is lukewarm about Voyager. Enterprise is something he has absolutely no interest in.

    My daughter (12) on the other hand, is anxious to see Enterprise, which would be a first for her. She loves all the series she has seen so far except TNG! So they have that in common. The only TNG eps she likes are those with Mrs. Troi!

    Film-wise, my children only like TOS movies and then only TMP, TVH, TFF and TUC.

    I have to admit first-run, the wife and I tried to watch DS9, but it was on WGN and was constantly preempted for sports programming, often broadcast (mostly unannounced!) at 2 or 3 AM! We gave up after season 3, which in retrospect, was just plain dumb. Having seen the series about 3 times on DVD, it never gets old. Love it, like my son, a tie with TOS for my favorite!
     
  7. Quinton O'Connor

    Quinton O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    Man, I've heard horror stories about DS9's scheduling during earlier seasons and every time I'm reminded, I cringe. Just awful.
     
  8. Saxman1

    Saxman1 Commodore Commodore

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    The funny thing is, WGN went to court to get DS9. Paramount didn't want to let them run it because they knew the station's bread and butter was sports programming and feared the show would be buried or pre-empted quite often and sometimes first-run in graveyard time slots as a result, which it often was! WGN offered more $ for the show than anyone else and that's why they got it and eventually buried it. They did the same with the later posthumous Roddenberry Sc-Fi series.

    WGN's "handling" of DS9 did nothing for its popularity. Don't forget, at the time, it was one of the largest independent television stations in the country, the station where a not insignificant portion of the country would watch the show. A lot of Trek fans I knew (including myself) just gave up on the show because it was a pain trying to figure out when they would show it. As I mentioned above, WGN was notorious for NOT letting people know when they would air a pre-empted ep, but they'd make sure at the end of every program they showed to mention the next sporting event. :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 3, 2011
  9. Quinton O'Connor

    Quinton O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    That's just flat-out horrible. And more than a little perplexing at that.

    I'm now wondering... does anyone know when UPN began airing the series? Or was that something separate and the two stations both aired it? I know UPN didn't actually start until 1994 or 1995 and DS9 came out before that, so obviously it wasn't there the whole time. But I was very, very young when the show started and my grandmother would find it and record it sometimes. It wasn't until around season four or five that I have specific memories of the show being on UPN, which just so happens to be around where I specifically remember watching it.

    It would help to explain why I have huge gaps in my mind (cue Sinclair music) on how we managed to catch up with it before that.
     
  10. Saxman1

    Saxman1 Commodore Commodore

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    In the Chicago metro area, DS9 was on WGN for its entire run, unfortunately. They aired the reruns on and off for years until they went to SPIKE, always in the graveyard shift or as filler in between sports and endless "Andy Griffith Show" reruns. WGN will be airing AGS reruns long after I'm dust.
     
  11. Quinton O'Connor

    Quinton O'Connor Commodore Commodore

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    That's very true...

    Well, I don't know. I guess the Chicago metro area would certainly be the place where it's always WGN, though. I feel for ya...