Articles of the Federation help!

[Mr Silver]

What you want is for her to turn out to be another Min Zife. I'm not saying there shouldn't be room for some stories about corruption in the Federation -- the Min Zife novels are excellent. But corruption in the Federation should be the exception, not the norm.

Because I think the Federation is overdue an internal struggle story arc. Who better to be behind it than the trustworthy and honourable Bacco? The difficulty in this would be determining her motivations for betraying her government.

Giving it some thought, I've come to the conclusion that Bacco could be effective on either side. The Borg crisis gives an excellent motivation for Federation citizens to splinter and blame the government for not doing enough to protect the Federation worlds. Naturally, the argument would be that they did as much as they could do with the resources they had available. I'm thinking along the lines of a more politically inclined version of the Maquis who are equally interested in destabalising Federation leadership as they are in being terrorists.

I could see something like this being the catalyst for the inevitable war between the Federation and the Typhon Pact.

 

[Sci]

What you want is for her to turn out to be another Min Zife. I'm not saying there shouldn't be room for some stories about corruption in the Federation -- the Min Zife novels are excellent. But corruption in the Federation should be the exception, not the norm.

Because I think the Federation is overdue an internal struggle story arc.

Why?

I'm thinking along the lines of a more politically inclined version of the Maquis who are equally interested in destabalising Federation leadership as they are in being terrorists.

Erm, the Maquis were intensely political. They were planetary nationalists who wanted to keep their land and form their own interstellar state away from Federation control. They weren't just in it for shits and giggles.

I could see something like this being the catalyst for the inevitable war between the Federation and the Typhon Pact.

What makes you think war between the Federation and the Typhon Pact is inevitable? The authors have said numerous times that that's a complete misreading of the creative point behind the Pact.

 

[JB2005]

See, I totally disagree with Admiral M's view...I'd much rather see Bacco go down in history as the best Federation President for the reason that she is...

And as for all this Federation splitting angry stuff...that's just not Star Trek, a Federation Civil War...come on?!

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

Just finished and have to say I ended up liking it. It was really good my main complaint is that the whole Ross scandal was taken care of too quickly IMO.

 

[GalaxyClass1701]

What you want is for her to turn out to be another Min Zife. I'm not saying there shouldn't be room for some stories about corruption in the Federation -- the Min Zife novels are excellent. But corruption in the Federation should be the exception, not the norm.

Because I think the Federation is overdue an internal struggle story arc. Who better to be behind it than the trustworthy and honourable Bacco? The difficulty in this would be determining her motivations for betraying her government.

Giving it some thought, I've come to the conclusion that Bacco could be effective on either side. The Borg crisis gives an excellent motivation for Federation citizens to splinter and blame the government for not doing enough to protect the Federation worlds. Naturally, the argument would be that they did as much as they could do with the resources they had available. I'm thinking along the lines of a more politically inclined version of the Maquis who are equally interested in destabalising Federation leadership as they are in being terrorists.

I could see something like this being the catalyst for the inevitable war between the Federation and the Typhon Pact.

An internal struggle story??? Wasn't that the whole point of Min Zife?

 

[captcalhoun]

well, you've just guarenteed it won't happen by posting story ideas about it.

well done

 

[DrBashir]

I find Nan Bacco boring on occasions because as the leader of an interstellar organisation - you'd expect her to be dealing with far more corruption and extremely sensitive diplomatic ventures than she actually does.

Oh, yes, how dangerous, those honest people are! Obvious proof that they're corrupt and not to be trusted!

I'm not sure I'd classify Bacco as honest, at least not as a major trait. She pretty much lost her cred on that front when she allowed Ross to resign without following up on what exactly happened to Zife.

Even her election is tainted due to it being becuase of Zife's "resignation". Who knows who would have won if he had served out his full term or had revealed the real reason he was stepping down.

She may strive to be honest but that doesn't mean she is.

 

[label]

Articles is still one of my favorites.

Nan Bacco in 2012 as far as I'm concerned.

I think she's someone that everyone from any party could enjoy be in charge.

 

[Sci]

I find Nan Bacco boring on occasions because as the leader of an interstellar organisation - you'd expect her to be dealing with far more corruption and extremely sensitive diplomatic ventures than she actually does.

Oh, yes, how dangerous, those honest people are! Obvious proof that they're corrupt and not to be trusted!

I'm not sure I'd classify Bacco as honest, at least not as a major trait. She pretty much lost her cred on that front when she allowed Ross to resign without following up on what exactly happened to Zife.

I'm not sure what else she could have done. It's either force him to retire -- and bear in mind, she forced him to retire; she did not "allow" it; the retirement was a punishment -- or expose his crimes to the public. Expose Ross's crimes, and you expose Zife's. Expose Zife's, and you risk a major war with the Klingons.

I reject the idea that because someone does something dishonest once, and for morally decent reasons, that this means they are fundamentally not honest people.

Even her election is tainted due to it being becuase of Zife's "resignation".

I'm sorry, but this is just nonsense. She had nothing to do with that, had no idea it was forced, and is not responsible for Ross's and Co's decisions. It was a free and fair election, she won it fair and square, and her election is not "tainted" because of someone else's crimes. What next, are we going to say that Jimmy Carter's election was "tainted" because of the crimes of Richard Nixon?

ETA:

If you're going to criticize Bacco, your argument would be stronger if you were to talk about her actions in Zero Sum Game.

 

[DrBashir]

I'll get to ZSG in good time.

When Nixon resigned, people knew at least some of the reasons why. All the Federation got was a fake speech from Zife with no idea that a group of Starfleet officers were basically making him do it at gunpoint.

Bacco knows that something has happened to Zife and that Ross was involved. You say she forced him to resign. How exactly is that punishment? He's got zall this free time now with none of the pressures that come with the rank. Nobody else knows why Ross resigned. It's not like he couldn't get work somewhere else without Bacco letting on why he had resigned.

 

[Sci]

I'll get to ZSG in good time.

When Nixon resigned, people knew at least some of the reasons why. All the Federation got was a fake speech from Zife with no idea that a group of Starfleet officers were basically making him do it at gunpoint.

Bacco knows that something has happened to Zife and that Ross was involved.

Not until the campaign was almost over.

You say she forced him to resign.

I don't say it; the novel says it.

How exactly is that punishment?

It removes him from any position of further influence upon the Federation government or the Federation Starfleet.

 

[Mr Silver]

Why?

Because whenever it's been attempted in the past, it's not lasted any serious amount of time or created any real threat to the core of the Federation. Sure, we've had hints to such storylines before with the likes of "Conspiracy" (the original story outline didn't contain any elements of alien influence), a couple of DS9 episodes and some novels, but there has never been a true internal threat to the Federation that has played out to the point that it could go either way.

Erm, the Maquis were intensely political. They were planetary nationalists who wanted to keep their land and form their own interstellar state away from Federation control. They weren't just in it for shits and giggles.

That's how they started, but they very quickly turned into a terrorist organisation. The political part of that equation came from the Federation who were trying to keep the peace between themselves and the Cardassians as their former citizens continued their attacks.

What makes you think war between the Federation and the Typhon Pact is inevitable? The authors have said numerous times that that's a complete misreading of the creative point behind the Pact.

Doesn't have to be a war in the combat sense. Cold wars have been done pretty well in Star Trek and using a concept like this could be an excellent illustration of the balance of power in the AQ.

well, you've just guarenteed it won't happen by posting story ideas about it.

Not really, any ideas that I have suggested are for self musing purposes and not designed to influence or de-influence anyone planning on authoring a Star Trek novel. Besides, I can think of much better ways to implement the suggestions I have made and the authors of TrekLit will surely have even better ideas about how to handle such concepts.

 

[CaptainDonovin]

I just finished the book and can definitely say it's well written and worth finishing for sure. I personally don't have a lot of interest in politics or even necessarily knowing what a year in the Federation President is like. To me, there were several "crisis" or situations that while well written, just didn't interest me all that much.

That being said, I still ended up enjoying the book quite a bit and recognize it as a very well written story in the same way I can hear a really well done piece of music that I don't care for personally as much as other do.

So, bottom line, push through........it's a book well worth reading and chances are you'll end up enjoying it like most of us did.

YES, keep with it. I've read Articles a few times, just love it. Would love a second one.

 

[DrBashir]

I'll get to ZSG in good time.

When Nixon resigned, people knew at least some of the reasons why. All the Federation got was a fake speech from Zife with no idea that a group of Starfleet officers were basically making him do it at gunpoint.

Bacco knows that something has happened to Zife and that Ross was involved.

Not until the campaign was almost over.

You say she forced him to resign.

I don't say it; the novel says it.

How exactly is that punishment?

It removes him from any position of further influence upon the Federation government or the Federation Starfleet.

Just because Ross is no linger in Starfleet doesn't mean he doesn't have influence. He still knows many, many people. He's a retired Admiral. That alone gives him influence. Also, he still has contact with Section 31.

It's like sentancing someone to resigning from a gang. Doesn't mean they are unable to still commit or assist with whatever types of crimes they did previously.

Imagine if Richard Nixon had last been seen as he entered the helicoper after his resignation and then NOBODY ever saw him again. Do you really think that nobody would question it?

If the position of UFP President is anything like the US President then they are responsible for enforcement of the law. Bacco is letting a suspected criminal or criminals get away without any investigation.

If Zife was removed from office illegally then the election to replace him, even if it was conducted in a legal fashon, is illegal because Zife had not finished his legal term.

 

[Sci]

Just because Ross is no linger in Starfleet doesn't mean he doesn't have influence. He still knows many, many people. He's a retired Admiral. That alone gives him influence. Also, he still has contact with Section 31.

Except that the entire point of that scene was that it was Bacco blackmailing him into retiring and refraining from doing anything, saying anything, or talking to anyone that might have any influence on policy. IIRC, the unspoken threat being that if he ever did anything, she would expose his crimes to the public, war with the Klingons be damned. She knew he'd want to avoid that enough to abide by her dictates.

Imagine if Richard Nixon had last been seen as he entered the helicoper after his resignation and then NOBODY ever saw him again. Do you really think that nobody would question it?

Depends. In this counterfactual world, would the United States have subsequently been under attack by invading forces who wipe out entire states, a la the Borg invasion? 'Cos I can kinda see no one questioning the disappearance of Richard Nixon if, say, the Soviet Union had subsequently nuked the West Coast.

To be more earnest: Of course they would question Zife's disappearance. And that's addressed in Articles.

(To be fair, author David Mack once posted on a bulletin board that if he were to do it again, he'd write in a scene where a Min Zife impersonator working for Section 31 is mentioned, to keep up appearances.)

If the position of UFP President is anything like the US President then they are responsible for enforcement of the law. Bacco is letting a suspected criminal or criminals get away without any investigation.

True. But she's doing it to avoid a major war that would have cost millions of lives.

I'm not saying it's the right thing to do. Nor do I think it the wrong thing, per se. But I don't think it's something that makes her irrevocably, fundamentally corrupt or dishonest. It's an action she undertakes in an attempt to save millions of lives, and that ain't nothin'.

If Zife was removed from office illegally then the election to replace him, even if it was conducted in a legal fashon, is illegal because Zife had not finished his legal term.

Uh, no. If Zife was removed from office illegally, then the only criminals are the ones who forced him out of office. That does not invalidate the free and fair election held to replace him. The legality of the termination of the previous President's term of office does not determine the legality of the subsequent election.

To put it another way:

If Zife had been assassinated while in office by, say, a rogue Jem'Hadar, then he would certainly have been removed from office illegally. Yet that does not mean that the election held subsequently would also have been illegal.

 

[DrBashir]

Unless Bacco is keeping Ross under 24 hour scrutiny (personal, comms, etc) then there's no way that she could ever know if he is or is not living up to his part of the agreement. And if someone is watching everything he does 24 hours a day then that's someone else that would have to have some idea that his resignation was not what it seemed.

Yes, Articles did cover this problem and it appears that, in the entire Federation, a grand total of one person figured out that something was very strange. And they agreed to keep quiet about it. Really? One person? We're not talking about some random person on the street, we're talking about the former President of the entire Federation along with two of his associates. Do these people not have family or friends?

If Zife had been assassinated by a Jem'Hadar then people would know that he's not longer able to fulfill his term and would take steps to replace him. In this situation, he is capable of fulfilling his term but is not permitted to by the secret actions of members of the military. Hardly the same situation as a nice, clean, public assassination. Instead we have a a lie told to the electors and a secret assassination. Which one works better for a democratic state?

 

[Sci]

Unless Bacco is keeping Ross under 24 hour scrutiny (personal, comms, etc) then there's no way that she could ever know if he is or is not living up to his part of the agreement.

Really? How's he going to affect Starfleet or Federation policy without her knowing? It's kinda hard to have influence without that fact getting around.

Yes, Articles did cover this problem and it appears that, in the entire Federation, a grand total of one person figured out that something was very strange.

No, it's just that only one reporter ever figured out that Zife was forced to resign and then assassinated.

For my money, I'm perfectly happy to presume that after she began asking questions, Section 31 decided to plant a Zife impersonator at some public event just to throw anyone else investigating Zife's whereabouts off the track.

If Zife had been assassinated by a Jem'Hadar then people would know that he's not longer able to fulfill his term and would take steps to replace him. In this situation, he is capable of fulfilling his term but is not permitted to by the secret actions of members of the military. Hardly the same situation as a nice, clean, public assassination. Instead we have a a lie told to the electors and a secret assassination. Which one works better for a democratic state?

You did not claim that the situation was bad for democracy. I think we'd all agree with that. What you claimed was that the 2379 Federation Presidential Election was itself illegal. Which is patent nonsense; the legality of an election is not determined by the legality of the manner of the previous President's leaving office.

 

[DrBashir]

Zife was the lawfully elected holder of the office of President. While the election itself may be lawfull the legetimacy of it can certainly be questioned. Imagine that shortly after the election Zife reappears and tells his story of how Starfleet officers forced him to resign at gunpoint and how he barely escaped beit assasinated afterwards. Is it not possible that the election would be set aside and Zife permitted to finish his term? Let's ignore the whole question of why he was forced out. Let's concentrate on the legitmacy and legality of what happens when the legally elected President is replaced through illegal means.

How is Ross going to affect Starfleet? How about having a few of his old Admiral buddies over for an evening of poker and shop talk? It's not like he's going to go around lobbying right in the council chambers. He can have influance just because of who he is, a war hero, former admiral and advisor to the President. It's not like he's going to suddenly be Admiral Who after leaving Starfleet.

Look at it like this, do you know who Colin Powell is and does he have any political and personal power to influence people? He's no longer in the military or in government but you can bet that there's any number of people in both that would listen to what he had to say.

 

[Sci]

Zife was the lawfully elected holder of the office of President. While the election itself may be lawfull

Yes, there you have it: The election was lawful.

the legetimacy of it can certainly be questioned. Imagine that shortly after the election Zife reappears and tells his story of how Starfleet officers forced him to resign at gunpoint and how he barely escaped beit assasinated afterwards. Is it not possible that the election would be set aside and Zife permitted to finish his term? Let's ignore the whole question of why he was forced out.

I really don't think you can set aside the question of why Ross forced him out. Zife is as much of a criminal as Ross is, frankly.

But let's go with that. Let's assume it's all been revealed and that the Klingons magically decide they don't want a war, and that Section 31's involvement has been made aware to everyone.

What would realistically happen? Realistically, no, Zife would not just be allowed to finish his term. His numerous crimes would preclude that, as would the fact that, for better or for worse, he did resign.

Let's presume that Zife reappears in, say, November 2379, shortly after NEM.

Realistically, at least one Federation grand jury and a Starfleet court-martial would be convened. Starfleet Captain Jean-Luc Picard, Admiral William Ross, Admiral Alynna Nechayev, Admiral Edward Jellico, Admiral Mamoru Nakamura, and Federation Ambassador to Tezwa Lagan Sera would be indicted for their conspiracy to force President Zife, Presidential Chief of Staff Koll Azernal, and Federation Secretary of Military Intelligence Nelina Quafina to resign. The Starfleet officers would presumably be facing court-martial and Ambassador Lagan would be facing a civilian court. I imagine that one of the specific charges would be treason. Another of the charges would be conspiracy to obstruct justice, since by choosing to force Zife out, they were attempting to preserve Azernal's plot to obstruct the true origins of the nadion pulse cannons on Tezwa. I leave it to others more knowledgeable than myself about military law to determine what other charges the Starfleet officers would likely face.

Similarly, Zife, Azernal, and Quafina would be facing indictments. The three of them would be indicted for their conspiracy to violate the Khitomer Accords by planting the nadion pulse cannons on Tezwa. Zife and Azernal would likely be indicted for their failure to brief the Klingons or Starfleet on the pulse cannons' presence, leading to thousands of Klingon deaths and the reckless endangerment of a Federation starship. There's a good chance that Zife would be indicted for the crime of ordering a war of aggression by ordering Picard to conquer Tezwa before the Klingons did. Picard may be indicted for following this illegal order rather than disobeying it.

And meanwhile, William Ross and Section 31 agents L'Haan of Vulcan and Dietz would be facing indictments for conspiracy to commit murder. Ross would be charged as an accessory, L'Haan and her agents as the actual attempted murderers.

Meanwhile, both the Klingon Empire and Tezwa would probably be itching to have Zife, Azernal, and Quafina extradited to their territory to face charges for the deaths of thousands of Klingons and untold millions of Tezwans. If we want to get more realistic, the Federation would likely refuse. This would exacerbate tensions between the Klingons and the Federation a great deal. Even if the Klingons did not decide to go to war, I cannot imagine they would not sunder the Khitomer Accords. I would be kind of surprised if Chancellor Martok survived; I'd bet good money he would be challenged for the chancellorship by Councillor Kopek, either overtly or through dishonorable means. I wouldn't be surprised to see Kopek in the Chancellor's seat afterwards.

(Tezwa is basically the Star Trek galaxy's Somalia or Afghanistan in the wake of the Klingon and Federation invasions: A poor, devastated culture unable to exert any of its will on the interstellar stage. Their demands for extradition would lead to nothing.)

There is a distinct possibility that President Bacco and her COS, Esperanza Piñiero, would face indictments for their decision to abet in Azernal's plans to obstruct justice by continuing to cover up Zife's and Ross's crimes (as would the admiral that Esperanza heard it from).

I think there's a strong chance that there would be a movement in the Federation Council to impeach President Bacco. If she emphasizes that it was her honest belief that exposing Zife and Ross would risk millions of lives, the she may avoid being removed from office. Maybe. Though given the harsher relations between Bacco and the Council in late 2379/early 2380 than later in her term, I would probably bet that she'd be removed from office by impeachment, triggering yet another special election.

This may or may not lead to an incredible amount of political instability in the Federation, and/or to major constitutional reform.

But there is no reasonable way that Zife's resignation or the 2379 election would be un-done. In fact, if the Federation is anything like the U.S. in this regard, I doubt that they would even have the constitutional authority to do so. Zife did leave office; this is a fact. An election was held for a newly-generated 4-year term; this is a fact. These things cannot be un-done.

That is how it would realistically play out: A lot of ruined careers and a lot of trials and a lot of jail time. A ruined alliance, an unstable government on Earth, a nationalist extremist government on Qo'noS. And a Federation that may well not have been able to survive the impending Borg invasion.

How is Ross going to affect Starfleet? How about having a few of his old Admiral buddies over for an evening of poker and shop talk?

That's not what I asked. I asked, how is he going to influence Starfleet without the President getting wind of it? People talk. Stuff like that gets noticed and reported upon. Yeah, Colin Powell is an influential guy. And guess what? Reporters pay attention to hm and report on his activities because of it.

 

[DrBashir]

The reporters are going to cover who Ross has over for dinner but they won't try to find out why Zife and two aides disappeared without a trace? having influence doesn't mean that he's going to be having big meetings right under Bacco's nose. Unless she's tapping his comms he can influence any number of people. If she is listening in on his calls then there's more people that will know that something is fishy abour Ross's resignation.

Bacco is quite willing to go to war with the Klingons because Ross defy's her but not willing to do it because someone assassinated her predecessor? She can hardly expose Ross without explaining why she didn't say anything earlier about her suspicions. It just makes her a larger part of the cover-up and adds to her guilt by association.

And nowhere is it proven that the Klingons will go to war. Bacco has a current Starfleet office who was formerly the ambassador to the Empire and is also a member of the Chancellors own house. That gives her quite an in with Martok. If (when) word does leak out abut Tezwa, how do you think the Klingons will react, not only about the weapons, but more importently about the cover-up? It's a prettly appalling lack of faith and trust in an allied power, particulary one that's as close as the Klingons. As Watergate showed, often the cover-up is worse than the actual crime.