Articles of the Fed. Question

[Who_Trek]

I am reading KRAD's Articles of the Federation right now (about time -- I got it a year ago!). I'm really enjoying it (even had a dream about the Fed President last night), but I have two questions ...

On page 158, there is a mention of a Lwaxana and Garek arging on the senate floor. Is that from an actual book? I don't remember reading that. I don't really care about Lwaxana, but Garek is one of my favorite characters in all of ST.

Question 2: There is a mention of the Klingons as a slaver race. I never really associated the Klingons with slavery (although perhaps I should have?). They obviously control a star-spanning empire, but do it as a govenment, or a king / subjects, or simply Masters and slaves? I would think being a slave owner would be dishonorable somehow.

Have a great day!

 

[The Nth Doctor]

Who_Trek said:
On page 158, there is a mention of a Lwaxana and Garek arging on the senate floor. Is that from an actual book? I don't remember reading that. I don't really care about Lwaxana, but Garek is one of my favorite characters in all of ST.

Not yet. Hopefully it will show up in another book at some point. Garak is likewise my favorite Star Trek character (although Malkenzie Calhoun is right behind him).

Who_Trek said:
Question 2: There is a mention of the Klingons as a slaver race. I never really associated the Klingons with slavery (although perhaps I should have?). They obviously control a star-spanning empire, but do it as a govenment, or a king / subjects, or simply Masters and slaves? I would think being a slave owner would be dishonorable somehow.

It's been a couple of years since () since I've read the books so I don't know how to answer that one, sorry.

 

[KRAD]

I am reading KRAD's Articles of the Federation right now (about time -- I got it a year ago!). I'm really enjoying it (even had a dream about the Fed President last night), but I have two questions ...

Thanks!

On page 158, there is a mention of a Lwaxana and Garek arging on the senate floor. Is that from an actual book? I don't remember reading that. I don't really care about Lwaxana, but Garek is one of my favorite characters in all of ST.

That argument is mentioned in The Brave and the Bold Book 2 in a conversation between Lwaxana and Worf. The actual argument hasn't been dramatized.

Question 2: There is a mention of the Klingons as a slaver race. I never really associated the Klingons with slavery (although perhaps I should have?). They obviously control a star-spanning empire, but do it as a govenment, or a king / subjects, or simply Masters and slaves? I would think being a slave owner would be dishonorable somehow.

First of all, why would being a slave owner be dishonorable?

Secondly, the Klingons do have a class of people in the empire called jeghpu'wI', which literally means "conquered people." They are less than citizens, but not quite slaves. However, an enlightened Federation citizen like Edmund Atkinson -- who's the one who described the Klingons as slavers, and he only did it by implication -- might not accept any significant distinction between jeghpu'wI' and slave.

 

[Who_Trek]

Thanks guys. I did read the Brave and the Bold books, but didn't remember that part. Luxana and Garek ... to be a fly on the wall of that discussion .... Mac would also be in my top ST characters, EMH.

 

[Sci]

Who_Trek said:
Thanks guys. I did read the Brave and the Bold books, but didn't remember that part. Luxana and Garek ... to be a fly on the wall of that discussion ....

You probably wouldn't need to be, since it was held on the Council floor (not Senate floor -- there's no Federation Senate ) when both were trying to persuade the Federation Council to allocate reconstruction resources to their respective homeworlds at the expense of the other's. Ergo, it'd all be public record!

 

[DS9Continuing]

Okay, I apologize in advance for the snarkiness of this, but if you claim he's one of your favourite characters, you might at least try spelling his name right.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Articles of the Fed. Question *DELETED*

Post deleted by Babaganoosh

 

[Rosalind]

Babaganoosh said:

KRAD said:First of all, why would being a slave owner be dishonorable?

You're kidding, right?

and you're using modern western thinking to judge the honor system of an alien race.

 

[KRAD]

Babaganoosh said:

KRAD said:First of all, why would being a slave owner be dishonorable?

You're kidding, right?

No, not even a little. Why would I be?

Also: what Rosalind said.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Articles of the Fed. Question *DELETED*

Post deleted by Babaganoosh

 

[William Leisner]

Babaganoosh said:
People who think that slavery isn't dishonorable...should ask the slaves.

The question wasn't about what people think; it was about what Klingons think.

 

[Christopher]

And Klingon ideas of honor aren't necessarily human. If you ask me, there's nothing remotely honorable about deliberately starting wars and killing people. If Klingons think destroying lives is honorable, I certainly wouldn't put it past them to think that owning them is honorable.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Re: Articles of the Fed. Question *DELETED*

Post deleted by Babaganoosh

 

[Captaindemotion]

Babaganoosh said:
Okay, okay, OKAY, I GET IT.

*leaves in shame*

Is that like the walk of shame Worf has to do when he's dishonoured in that TNG episode (name escapes me)? Should the rest of us be turning our backs on you as you leave?

 

[captcalhoun]

Sins of the Father

 

[BrotherBenny]

captcalhoun said:
Sins of the Father

The world should make George Bush make that walk of shame, as the whole world turns its back on him, we'll call the episode "Sins of the President"

 

[KRAD]

Assuming there hasn't been an epidemic of mass amnesia as to what happened oh, about a century and a half ago,

Not at all. I know what happened a century and a half ago. I also know that slavery has been an integral part of many civilizations on the planet for a very long time. The idea of slavery being repugnant is, in historical terms, a very recent development. (Then again, the idea of inherent human rights is also a very recent development.)

People who think that slavery isn't dishonorable...should ask the slaves.

Well, duh, but we're not talking about 21st-century humans (or even 23rd- or 24th-century ones), but about Klingons, a species whose culture is built around combat and conquest.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Rosalind said:

Babaganoosh said:

KRAD said:First of all, why would being a slave owner be dishonorable?

You're kidding, right?

and you're using modern western thinking to judge the honor system of an alien race.

Of course. What other thinking should I use?

I'm not a real big believer in gray areas, as is probably already obvious. My worldview is so black & white it should be a zebra.

Captaindemotion said:
Is that like the walk of shame Worf has to do when he's dishonoured in that TNG episode (name escapes me)? Should the rest of us be turning our backs on you as you leave?

Since I've decided that leaving would be premature - plus I'm in a much better mood now than I was when I posted earlier, so much apologies for my earlier gloomy posts, which I have since deleted - then that would be a big fat no.

Xeris said:The world should make George Bush make that walk of shame, as the whole world turns its back on him, we'll call the episode "Sins of the President"

I see. That answers the question above, then. You hate him so much, therefore I guess I know how you feel about those who voted for him.

 

[Trent Roman]

Babaganoosh said:

Rosalind said:
and you're using modern western thinking to judge the honor system of an alien race.

Of course. What other thinking should I use?

I'm not sure why you think there's bullying taking place, but let's see if I can explain this better:

Of course being slaves (or jeghpu'wI) is a bad thing from our perspective, one of enlightened and universal human (sentient) rights. No one is arguing against that. In fact, KRAD's works on the Klingon Empire have made it plenty abudant, from the depiction of the servile existence of actual jeghpu'wI, to the struggle by both jeghpu'wI to throw off that status and certain Klingons to prevent that status befalling a culture they respect, to the legitimate concerns of Federation citizens about an alliance with what is, essentially, a race of brutal conquerors, and the moral cost of the political expediency of that alliance. There's really no disagreement on the topic.

What is being said, however, is that from the perspective of the Klingon mindset, people who are conquered deserve slavery. Just like in the Klingon mindset, civilizations which are weak deserve to be conquered, or inept officers deserve to be assassinated by junior personel who take their place. No one, not the TV or book writers, are advocates of such things: they are depicting an alien lifestyle and system of values. That's what people are saying: using the Klingon notion of honour as a basis, a Klingon would find nothing wrong about making people jeghpa'wI; just as the old human slavers used pseudo-scientific hierarchies of 'race' and religious scripture to justify their own barbarous practices. It makes sense within that limited point of view.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I guess I just can't reconcile the Klingon concept of honor in battle - they do seem to fight in ways that even *we* would consider honorable, meaning they wouldn't shoot unarmed opponents in the back or anything like that - with what we're talking about here. How can they treat their opponents honorably in battle, yet not do the same with slaves?

(Assuming it is even possible to treat a slave in any manner even remotely approaching honor, but then there's that Western thinking again which I'm apparently not supposed to use..)