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Spoilers Arrow - Season 5

I don't know why this needs to be pointed out, but what Willa Holland believes is overridden by what the producers actually tell us...

Yes. Actors are labor, not management, so their understanding of what's going on at the executive level is second or third-hand.


So WB giveth but cannot taketh away?

They can do either. They own the characters, after all -- or rather, DC owns the characters and Warner Bros. owns DC. It's not hard to understand that if someone owns something, you need to ask their permission before you borrow it, and they're entitled to say no.


Or is this semantics? Maybe there's no embargo per se but the TV side appears to take marching orders from the WB

Yes, that's just the point -- "embargo" is the wrong word. It implies a blanket prohibition that Warner Bros./DC has handed down, when actually it's a case-by-case determination. It's the difference between "No, I will never let you borrow my car under any circumstances" and "I'll consider letting you borrow my car if you ask me, but I might say no depending on the circumstances."

For instance, it used to be the case that there was an embargo on using Wonder Woman in any screen production where she was a guest character instead of a lead character. It was meant to protect her prominence as a character, but it backfired, because it rendered her largely invisible. It's why she never showed up in the DC Animated Universe until Justice League, where she was a member of the core ensemble and thus a lead character, and why she was the only JL core member who never guest-starred on Static Shock. Under an embargo, there were no exceptions to the ban, so she appeared less than she could have. Once the embargo was lifted, then it was decided on a case-by-case basis, so she could appear as a guest star in the final season of Batman: The Brave and the Bold.
 
When did that guest star embargo first start? She did guest star in an single episode of the 1988 Superman animated series produced by Ruby Spears.
 
People keep arguing this in absolutes, either they're banned completely or they have free reign over anything. Also, people seem to be arguing that the same rules that applied 5 years ago also apply now when this is clearly not the case.

The truth seems to be somewhere in the middle.

From the snippets of interviews from various people, it's obvious DC supported and encouraged the inclusion of SS characters at first.
Once they definitely decided to go ahead with the movie they already started imposing restrictions, first being them denying the inclusion of Harley, then the SS themed episode(they spoke of plans of having one each season previously), soon after that Arrow writers started to kill the characters themselves off and both the cast and crew implied they were off the table.

What we do know, as Guggenheim said in a recent interview, is that they review use of characters on a case by case basis:



Deadshot being a ghost was deemed okay, as was Waller in a flashback last season, but who knows if they would have allowed use of them if an episode that was centered on them.

Thats what I'm guessing too.... after the successful test run, they asked to back off the characters so they could push the movie. Now that the movie is out, maybe they can more freely use the characters again. Its been pretty well discussed that Will Smith wanted to be the sole face of Deadshot, and we know that Ted Kord was removed as an option by higher ups, and was changed into Ray Palmer for some reason. Deathstroke is going to be the villain in the new Batman film, but hasn't appeared on Arrow since his more widespread popularity was launched. Its definitely more complicated then just "no embargo." It is also documented factual history, that embargo's throughout DC animation history have kept characters from being used constantly, over a period of decades. (Some Bat characters weren't allowed on Superfriends (hence B listers in the Legion of Doom); Aquaman was removed from JLU for some reason; Christopher referenced the Wonder Woman situation. There are more, and even more rumors.)
 
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I wonder if Time Warner being bought by AT&T will result in any executive changes on the Warner Brothers/DC level. All this talk of embargoes, lack of embargoes, and semi-embargoes may have to restart if the restructuring reaches that far down.
 
I wonder if Time Warner being bought by AT&T will result in any executive changes on the Warner Brothers/DC level. All this talk of embargoes, lack of embargoes, and semi-embargoes may have to restart if the restructuring reaches that far down.

Well, if they put someone new in charge of DC Entertainment, that could affect a lot of things. But didn't Geoff Johns already get promoted into a more central role there? If he succeeds in making Wonder Woman and Justice League and the rest more successful than the first three DCEU films, they'll probably let him continue in the job, because it's not like very many of his predecessors have had a damn clue how to make DC movies work.
 
I wonder if Time Warner being bought by AT&T will result in any executive changes on the Warner Brothers/DC level. All this talk of embargoes, lack of embargoes, and semi-embargoes may have to restart if the restructuring reaches that far down.
They will embargo the use of non-AT&T phones including pulling streaming rights for the Smallville episodes with Sprint phone product placement.
 
So they really did it. They acknowledged the "Flashpoint" change of Diggle & Lyla's kid in the opening recap and then just went on with the altered continuity with nobody in the story noticing. That's going to play very oddly for viewers in years to come, watching just this series and not the whole thing. Especially since Netflix often leaves off the opening recaps.

Still, I think they may have done something clever with it. I was wondering if Floyd Lawton being alive again was another Flashpoint change, so it was a surprise when it turned out that Diggle was hallucinating him. (Which, really, I should've suspected sooner, given the enormous coincidence of them ending up in a cell together.) I wonder if that hallucination indicates something seriously wrong with Diggle, as opposed to being just a dramatic device to illustrate his inner conflict.

I didn't really buy the thing about the guy being made superhuman by not feeling pain. Pain alerts us to injury and damage, or the risk thereof. People who can't feel pain are prone to constantly hurting themselves by accident and can barely function. And people were shooting this guy in the back. He should've still collapsed from blood loss even if he didn't feel the bullets. And yet Oliver defeated him at the end by exploiting that very fact -- that lack of pain is not invulnerability -- even though the rest of the episode ignored that. Not very consistent.
He did get other abilities besides just no feeling pain, they said he also got enhanced strength, and I think one or two other things.
Nice to see the new team in action and in costume. The Wild Dog and Mr. Terrific costumes are surprisingly authentic, though Artemis's outfit is a little bland.
Yeah, I agree on all three.

Overall, I really enjoyed this episode. It was great seeing the new team in action at the end, and Samson was a pretty cool villain. I don't watch wrestling, but I do know from the announcements that the guy who played Samson went by Stardust as a wrestler, so the fact that that was the drug was a fun easter egg.
I hadn't heard anything thing about Deadshot so his appearance was a surprise, and the reveal he wasn't really there was a nice fakeout.
Thea's storyline and the flashbacks were good too, and the theme about trust tied into the superhero story nicely.
 
I wonder how permanent the new team is. Echo Kellum is the only one of the four who's billed as a regular instead of a guest star. And it looks like Diggle's about to find his way back to the team and probably resume being Spartan. I'd love to see Thea back in costume, because she really looked hot in it, but I'm not sure it's what would serve her character arc best at this point. I'd say Artemis has a good chance of staying around, because Oliver would want to honor Laurel's last request to keep the Canary legacy alive. But whether both Wild Dog and Ragman stick around permanently is open to question. Either one might end up getting killed after we've gotten to care about them. On the other hand, both have potential motives to switch to the villains' side, Rene because of his general defiance and pride and Rory because of the whole "Oops, sorry I nuked your city and everyone you loved" thing.
 
Regarding the conversation on page 11 on the subject of WB/DC's embargo: a certain SS member was present during Arrow's 100th episode after party. Could this be a return for his character on the show?

Boomerangs always come back.
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I just watched the first two episodes of this season, and they were really good. I don't know what's happened, but the CW shows have blown me away and somehow turned themselves around in a big way. The Flash is, ironically, the only one of the shows with outright bad opening episodes, but its third episode was great and the first two episodes seem to have been a bit of a stumble and not a sign that the show's quality was going down.

I liked the story and the new villains. The only problem is that I legitimately thought that Prometheus was Ragman, so I got a bit confused why he was switching from weapons to a magic suit (I think its Prometheus's weird mask that made me confused, and the fact that they were both mostly in darkness in the episode). Prometheus doesn't resemble the comic version, but on a show that, for example, renamed Mr. Terrific's civilian identity for absolutely no reason I'm pretty much used to weird changes from the source material. The new team is pretty cool. I don't know who the woman is (Artemis, I think, based on a few things I've read?), but they all seem interesting and should be interesting additions.

I also liked how I didn't feel lost, even after having skipped most of Season 4. I have no idea what Genesis Day is, but its enough to know that something magic happened and it freaked people out (also, there were nukes, which also makes Ragman's story very interesting). Its also really nice to have Felicity get to be a character and not have the show be all about relationship drama with her and Oliver, I actually liked her for the first time in a long time. Overall, I'm impressed. If Arrow keeps going like this, its won me back as a viewer, and I didn't think it could do that.
 
Damien Darkh's endgame was to practically nuke the entire world. His magic power's source was death, so killing the entire world would have made him absolutely invincible and god like. and king of his own little world in an oversized underground bunker where he wanted to rerun the 50s.
He took controll of the entire worlds nuclear arsenal with stolen tech and Felicity cyber battled him over the nukes' control. One slipped through her fingers but she could redirect it to a less populated target instead.

The entire story was incredibly ironic, because while Darkh was busy destroying this world over on the Flash Zoom was busy destroying every other Earth except this one.

Oh, and of course, Black Canary was killed by Darkh shortly before that and Oliver revealed her identity to Star City declaring her a hero who died defending them.
That's why she has a statue in the city's harbour and The new girl got motivated to pick up her mantle.
 
Harvey Dent, can we trust him?

I see Arrow's still finding stuff to borrow from The Dark Knight trilogy, this time it was the plane lift escape ;)

Overall, another good episode. Oliver's stuff was pretty good, his not giving up on Diggle and the one man prison break were well done, as was him taking out his team with almost no effort.
Speaking of the new team, I like how they're (slowly) improving as a unit and Oliver's absence helped with giving them a bit of space to interact among themselves, which was also welcome. Wild Dog disobeying at first was kinda annoying, but he made up for it later on with staying behind to cover his teammates. It's a shame Wild Dog apparently never watched Raiders of the Lost Ark, he should have just shot Church and escaped, but it is entirely in keeping with his reckless nature.
I liked that Ragman and Felicity managed to talk it out without being overly dramatic or dragging it out over half a season, the show's much improved in that department and the overall pacing is much better for it. It feels like it's building up steadily and not stagnating, here's hoping they keep it up. :techman:
 
I'm liking Chad L. Coleman's Church character, he seems like somebody who might've been a villain in one of the Netflix shows. A crime boss whose occupation actually flavors the character and who isn't just someone with big powers and a grudge. He isn't out to destroy multiple Earths or nuke the planet but he's tied into the city as is Oliver/Arrow. That seems quite appropriate to the scope and power of the characters.

However, this show seems to go out of its way to not make Arrow a very likable character. Combined with the preemptive violent tactics of the team sometimes it's hard to know why you are supposed to be rooting for them.

The Diggle subplot was strange, I don't think I've ever seen a show break someone out of prison who didn't want to leave. Felicity seemed to be making sense there, I guess he will forever be on the run from the law?
 
I guess he will forever be on the run from the law?

Not necessarily. His wife is the head of a super secret government agency so she might have some pull in making things go away.
Or Felicity could find a way to hack his law troubles away.
Or he can go clean out Harlem, turn himself in and then have Matt Murdock defend him and clear his name ;)
 
I just realized last night that Artemis's "mask" is actually face paint. That's rather weird. And she really doesn't have much of a costume per se, unlike the others. They need to get her a Cisco Ramon super-costume makeover, stat.

As for Mr. Terrific's "mask," they called it that in dialogue last week, but I think it must really be makeup, since there's no way a mask would conform that perfectly to his skin and features. Maybe there's an appliance forming the edges of the "T," blended in with makeup over his eyes, nose, and mouth to create the illusion of a skin-hugging mask. Well, it's certainly novel.

Speaking of masks, I remember Diggle asking Cisco last season about upgrading his Spartan mask. I wonder if we'll finally see the debut of the new design. Actually, Oliver's prison-break mask was pretty cool. I wonder how he could breathe through it, though.

It's a bit odd that Oliver said he didn't want Lyla risking getting herself thrown in jail along with John, but she then ended up abetting in the jailbreak anyway. I guess maybe they had no choice because Felicity refused to help, but Felicity couldn't have flown that cargo plane if she had gone along with it. (Well, maybe she would've had another exit strategy.)
 
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