Arizona immigration law

[John Picard]

Why are these people playing the race card over this?

The law is the law.

If you don't legally belong in the country you need to leave.

If you do you have nothing to worry about.

Oh Heaven forbid we ruin your day by asking for your proof of citizenship after you commit a crime.

Let those idiots protest.

And what about racial profiling? Let me share with you a story of what happened when i crossed into AZ over the weekend:

Me, my brother, and my cousin were driving on the I-10 East from Los Angeles, CA to Avondale, AZ to drop off my brother who lives there. We had just crossed the AZ-CA border where a Border Patrol cruiser and truck began to follow us. We pulled into the Flying J truck stop to use the rest room and to eat. Both the cruiser and the truck followed us to the truck stop. We proceeded to use the facilities and to have some food. The truck parked a few spaces away from my car; the cruiser began to circle the lot while we ate. It took us about an hour or so to have our meal. During the entire time we ate, the cruiser kept circling the lot, waiting for us. After dinner, we proceeded to the car, and then to the adjoining gas station. We then left the truck stop. The cruiser got in right behind us. As soon as we got back onto the I-10, the cruiser started flashing his lights to pull us over. We immediately got to the shoulder and proceeded to stop. The border patrol agent approached us on the right hand side of the car. He immediately approached my cousin, who was sitting in the back seat. The first thing out of the agent's mouth was, "You in the back! What's your citizenship status?" All three of us are natural born US Citizens. All of us were born in Los Angeles, CA. The agent began to ask us all sorts of questions and didn't answer our simple question of, why he pulled us over? We asked if there was a problem. He didn't answer us. He asked where we were coming from, where we were going, and why. He was very rude, very curt to us. He was not polite at all. He asked if we had any weapons in the car. My brother had his gun, which was in a locked box, in my trunk. The agent then asked why he had a gun. And what kind of job he has that he has a gun for. It was his personal gun, since he has a CCW for Arizona. None of these questions were valid as to why he stopped us, which he never informed us WHY he stopped us. After being waylay-ed for close to half an hour, he finally let us go, after it became painfully obvious that we were all American-born citizens. So my question is: why did he stop us? Suddenly, 3 people of Mexican heritage MUST be illegal? I was not aware that so many illegal immigrants drove 04 Nissan Sentras.

He should have given you all the Rodney King treatment and then let you off with a warning

 

[scotpens]

. . . And what exactly constitutes "reasonable suspicion" of being an illegal alien that doesn't involve racial profiling of Hispanics?

Okay, try this scenario on for size: A police officer pulls a minivan over for a minor traffic violation. A dozen passengers are crammed in. None has identification. The highway is a known alien-smuggling corridor. The driver is acting evasively. Wouldn't you say those factors combine to create "reasonable suspicion" that the occupants are not in the country legally?

Furthermore, the law specifically provides that a law enforcement official “may not solely consider race, color or national origin” in making any stops or determining immigration status.

The link gives the full text of the law, in case anyone actually wants to read it.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

Furthermore, the law specifically provides that a law enforcement official “may not solely consider race, color or national origin” in making any stops or determining immigration status.

The law says they can't, but they will. There's not a damn thing anyone can do about it. Take a look at Shameless's story. He and the people with him were pulled over for absolutely no reason other than being of Hispanic descent.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

. . . And what exactly constitutes "reasonable suspicion" of being an illegal alien that doesn't involve racial profiling of Hispanics?

Okay, try this scenario on for size: A police officer pulls a minivan over for a minor traffic violation. A dozen passengers are crammed in. None has identification. The highway is a known alien-smuggling corridor. The driver is acting evasively. Wouldn't you say those factors combine to create "reasonable suspicion" that the occupants are not in the country legally?

Furthermore, the law specifically provides that a law enforcement official “may not solely consider race, color or national origin” in making any stops or determining immigration status.

The link gives the full text of the law, in case anyone actually wants to read it.

A police officer already has the right to ask for ID from everyone in that situation because of the original traffic violation and because there is an unsafe number of passengers in the minivan. Why is the extra law needed unless it gives extra powers over and above what officers already are able to do?

The boyfriend of one of my coworkers was waiting outside the building to walk home with her when he was stopped and questioned by police and asked for his ID, which he didn't have since he lived right across the street. He was born in the US but raised in Mexico before coming back here and had a thick accent. Apparently his hanging around the front of our building being Hispanic was grounds enough for the officers to detain him and bring him to the police station. I tried to tell the officer's who he was but was angrily told to back off and stay out of it. Fortunately, after I told his girlfriend inside she was able to run home, get his ID and get him out of the station within the hour, but why should he have had to go through with that in the first place? Don't tell me this law won't be abused when abuses are already occurring without it being in place.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Illegal immigration is a big problem that needs to be addressed. But not by the Gestapo.

Curiously enough, we primarily seem to target illegal immigrants--who usually don't speak English, aren't white, are poor, and have virtually no legal resources. And yet, we seem to give the businesses that employ them a pass. Where's the push for hefty fines, thorough investigations, revocation of charters? The perception seems to be that it's the Mexicans who are the problem, while the employers who give them a reason to be here fly under the radar.

Nail on head. The businesses (and wealthy citizens) who exploit illegal immigrants are given a free pass. Why? Surely not because they are Right Wingers who use them to get cheap labor while avoiding the payment of taxes.

The boyfriend of one of my coworkers was waiting outside the building to walk home with her when he was stopped and questioned by police and asked for his ID, which he didn't have since he lived right across the street. He was born in the US but raised in Mexico before coming back here and had a thick accent. Apparently his hanging around the front of our building being Hispanic was grounds enough for the officers to detain him and bring him to the police station. I tried to tell the officer's who he was but was angrily told to back off and stay out of it. Fortunately, after I told his girlfriend inside she was able to run home, get his ID and get him out of the station within the hour, but why should he have had to go through with that in the first place? Don't tell me this law won't be abused when abuses are already occurring without it being in place.

A Black guy I worked with at BMC was once arrested for driving a nice car, on suspicion that he must have stolen it. He was one of our best physicians.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

I'm wondering how one enforces that without either A) making the law a moot point and only able to be enforced when you've already stopped a person and asked for ID for some other crime or violation - in which case this law is pointless because that can already be done, or B) racially profile based on appearance and speech and make an assumption that a person might be here illegally. This law makes no sense unless it encourages racial profiling, because you can already stop someone and ask for ID if you've pulled them over for a legitimate offense.

The answer is A. Most of what is in SB1070 already exists within other Arizona laws. The fact that anyone bothered to write this law at all is largely political posturing and bureaucratic reorganizing.

Furthermore, the law specifically provides that a law enforcement official “may not solely consider race, color or national origin” in making any stops or determining immigration status.

The law says they can't, but they will. [...] Take a look at Shameless's story. He and the people with him were pulled over for absolutely no reason other than being of Hispanic descent.

The alleged inherent racism of police officers exists independent of SB1070. If you have any suggested remedies for that problem, I'd love to hear them.

Shameless' story is also of limited relevance because SB1070 doesn't even go into effect for 90 days.

Why is the extra law needed unless it gives extra powers over and above what officers already are able to do?

SB1070 does not give police officers any additional powers to approach or accost anyone. It is primarily directed towards law enforcement, requiring them to determine the immigration status of lawfully contacted individuals IF there is a "reasonable suspicion" that they are not in the country legally. Then, it provides legal requirements for law enforcement agencies to share that information with ICE, Border Patrol, and other law enforcement agencies and to transport illegal aliens to the appropriate federal authorities.

Also, for all those who complain that only the illegal aliens are being targeted, not the employers, I direct you to Sections 5, 7, 8, & 9 of SB1070. http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/49leg/2r/bills/sb1070h.pdf

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Refusal to identify oneself in the investigation of a crime is a different matter from being unable to prove identity while walking down the street, which is, by my reading, what the Arizona law would empower police to demand.

Only if the person in question was lawfully contacted in the first place.

I'd also like to quote SB1070 Section 2 sub-section K: THIS SECTION SHALL BE IMPLEMENTED IN A MANNER CONSISTENT WITH FEDERAL LAWS REGULATING IMMIGRATION, PROTECTING THE CIVIL RIGHTS OF ALL PERSONS AND RESPECTING THE PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES OF UNITED STATES CITIZENS.

I'm curious how well this will hold up if an when they start enforcing the provision that makes it a misdemeanor to knowingly provide shelter to less than 10 illegal immigrants or a felony for more than 10. I bet as soon as the first priest, nun, or minister gets dragged out of their church in cuffs for providing food, water, clothing, and medical care to immigrant families the public support for this will shift rather quickly.

"Knowingly." This is assuming that the clergy in question have inquired as to their immigration status. Why would they do that?

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

I wonder how many white people they are going to stop? There are a bunch of people here in the US that are here on expired visas...

Yeah, how many white people with expired visas do you figure we've deported lately? But no, it's only the illegal aliens from south of Texas that are a problem.

I wonder how many illegal immigrants are there from North of the border?

 

[pookha]

If a cop pulls you over and asks for a license and registration do you protest and claim your 4th Amendment rights?

No, because to drive a car I must have my driver's license and registration. If I'm just walking down the street, they shouldn't be able to stop me and demand ID for no reason.

What part of "reasonable suspicion" do you *NOT* understand?

well evidently in arizona not being blonde and blue eyed is reasonable suspicion to them.

if they are already this out of control as illustrated in what happened to shameless lord knows how bad it is going to get.

i can see a lot of native born Americans shunning Arizona as more tales like his get out into the press if they remotely look like they are of Hispanic or say mediterranean descent.
or any one who isnt blue eyed and blonde.

 

[Hoser]

I wonder how many illegal immigrants are there from North of the border?

SHHHHHHH

 

[gturner]

So far as I can tell, all this law does is allow the police to treat being an illegal alien as something that's actually illegal. In other states it's not a state crime to be in the country illegally so the officers just ignore it, wondering why the old INS doesn't do something about the border.

One of the provisions in this law is that if anyone thinks they were unlawfully approached by the police prior to their immigration status being determined, they get to sue.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

I wonder how many illegal immigrants are there from North of the border?

SHHHHHHH

Sorry Hoser I keep forgetting...

 

[Captain Ice]

In fact, this is pretty much what the Nazis were doing during WWII. What does it say for any state in the Union that they are expecting people to carry papers at all times? That's not how we should be running things.

It's also what the United States did before the Civil War. It also was not unheard of for the authorities to simply ignore the papers when they were presented.

Long story short, without addressing some of what I believe you're poorly misguided on, Robert, is that the States are sick of the Federal Government *NOT* securing the border and *NOT* arresting illegals. So, they (the States) pass a law that garners attention that neither a Senator nor Representative wants during an election year.

Harry Reid was all set to bury Immigration Reform but has had to change gears because, as the citizens see it, the Federal Government has failed in its #1 responsibility, which is protecting the citizenry. It's easy for people thousands of miles away to say there aren't any problems at the border, and anyone who believes that is a damned fool.

Ding ding ding.

Folks, we have a winner. This is part of the real reason why this law was enacted. Part two is that it draws heat off of Brewer for trying to push a tax hike (which is desperately needed to keep our schools funded) through during an election year.

Perhaps because the law itself is racially motivated.

How?

There are two angles to the problem of illegal immigration: the immigrants themselves, and the businesses that employ them.

Curiously enough, we primarily seem to target illegal immigrants--who usually don't speak English, aren't white, are poor, and have virtually no legal resources. And yet, we seem to give the businesses that employ them a pass. Where's the push for hefty fines, thorough investigations, revocation of charters? The perception seems to be that it's the Mexicans who are the problem, while the employers who give them a reason to be here fly under the radar.

The fact is that no politician wants to address the real reason that illegal immigration exists. Go after the companies that hire illegals, making it so expensive if you actually get caught with one whether you know you have one working for you or not and companies will figure out a way to absolutely guarantee that everyone working for them is legal.

Eliminate their jobs and you eliminate the illegals themselves.

I'm wondering how one enforces that without either A) making the law a moot point and only able to be enforced when you've already stopped a person and asked for ID for some other crime or violation - in which case this law is pointless because that can already be done, or B) racially profile based on appearance and speech and make an assumption that a person might be here illegally. This law makes no sense unless it encourages racial profiling, because you can already stop someone and ask for ID if you've pulled them over for a legitimate offense.

The answer is A. Most of what is in SB1070 already exists within other Arizona laws. The fact that anyone bothered to write this law at all is largely political posturing and bureaucratic reorganizing.

I have a few suspicions as to who is actually behind the first portion of this new law. For the last few years, we've had one department that has been attempting to round up illegal aliens. When they started, they tried to get the other departments in the Phoenix Metropolitan area.

The other departments refused, and one vehemently so. A couple of weeks later, the department rounding up illegal aliens conducts a raid of city hall in the community served by the department that had vehemently objected to participate. The ongoing political battle between the Sheriff and the other departments in the area got to be quite an earful for a long while. After a while, federal immigration officials put an end to their liason with the Sheriff's department.

This bill pretty much seems to advocate what the Sheriff's department was doing while they were working with the Feds. Coincidence? I think not.

 

[Robert Maxwell]

The fact is that no politician wants to address the real reason that illegal immigration exists. Go after the companies that hire illegals, making it so expensive if you actually get caught with one whether you know you have one working for you or not and companies will figure out a way to absolutely guarantee that everyone working for them is legal.

Eliminate their jobs and you eliminate the illegals themselves.

But it's so much easier and more politically expedient to target the powerless, isn't it? That's the part that disgusts me the most. The businesses that hire illegals are the source of the problem. If no one would hire them, they wouldn't be here. But since the businesses are the ones making the campaign donations, we let it slide. It's sickening.

You can catch all the illegals you want at the border, or on the street. But without going after the employers themselves, making them a heavy price for not having documented workers, the problem will never go away or even be reduced appreciably.

We could cut this problem off at the source, but we'd rather victimize illegal immigrants even more. They're already hired off the books, paid less than minimum wage, given no benefits or assured of fair treatment by their employers, and laws like this will just make them even more terrified of police. Crimes will go unreported, employers will get off scott free, and yeah, maybe some illegal immigrants will get sent home--at least until they can jump the border again.

I like the idea of offering seasonal work visas. Make them relatively easy to get. Put these people in the system so we can be sure they're treated equitably by their employers, and so they aren't afraid to report crimes or employer abuses to the police.

The people focusing on just "getting the illegals out of our country" are living in fantasy land. It's never going to happen. There are too many of them and there are too many ways across the border.

Target the businesses that employ them, focus on getting the illegal immigrants documented and treated fairly, and the problem won't go away but it will largely take care of itself. Employers who only hire illegals so they can skirt employment laws will feel the pinch, and the immigrants themselves will be documented so we know who they are and what they're doing here.

 

[publiusr]

Carlos Mencia had a nice bit on Larry King Live, with his statement about pulling over someone with pointy boots and a cowboy hat or something to that effect. Then too, if, say, Medger Evers were murdered today, and an APB were put out on Byron De la Beckwith, a Latino individual pulled over by mistake would be cleared, also based on appearance. Profiling thus helped catch a bigot. The FBI did not waste type in Skokie, New York, etc. They went for where all the folks had guns and Ammo subscriptions. That is profiling as well.

Laws are tools that officers can use since there is always going to be hunches and other feelings hard to quantify that will always relay on discretion. This serial killer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Bonin

--was initially captured on (arguably stupid) Sodomy charges IIRC, which were a vehicle (like Tax evasion charges were for Capone) to get a dangerous man behind bars. Phenix City Alabama was a border town (all gringos) which was the Juarez for its day. Lack of law-enforcement in that border town was also a problem.

Imagine if a Mass Murderer crosses the border as a passenger in a car. Under the new law, if the law-enforcement officer has a hunch about the passenger of a car he can ask questions, otherwise, the man may move north to kill again--and since most killers murder within their own demographics, it won't be gringos that will be under threat.

It is a testy situation, and folks who might argue for the law wind up getting slimed on because a lot of conservatives in favor of this law all but threatened Census workers who were also doing nothing but asking questions. This hypocritical behavior therefore causes reasonable folks who support the law to look like fools. Had the Tea Party folks not had stupid effigies of the President as a native, protestations of bigotry wouldn't have sat as well. They brought it on themselves.

The problem is that folks don't want to pay anybody to work. Businessmen like Kudlow called non-free traders bigots--naturally because he wants cheap labor. Businessmen are the problem here of course. Maybe a global minimum wage would stop it.

 

[scotpens]

. . . A Black guy I worked with at BMC was once arrested for driving a nice car, on suspicion that he must have stolen it. He was one of our best physicians.

I suppose that qualifies as an arrest for "DBMWWB" -- Driving a BMW While Black.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Head of MLB players union weighs in: Linky

 

[Peak]

Glad that people have found other reasons to oppose this law (although, I don't really see why, but I'm an european). In TNZ, the reason seemed mostly (at the beginning) to be that there wouldn't be anyone doing the low paid work if illegals was deported. Which I found to be a really strange argument, myself.