Ares/Orion on the blocks?

[darkwing_duck1]

You have a funny idea of "benefit to society." We don't get much benefit from the military except the ability to bomb countries we've barely heard of with incredibly expensive weapons we've never seen for reasons we don't understand.

The military is like insurance. You bitch about paying for it until the time comes when you NEED it. Then you're damned glad you have it. In fact, the BEST military is one so powerful, so skilled, and so feared, that no one ever tests it by agressing against you to begin with.

 

[Dayton3]

Finally, be honest.

In the last 20 years how much money has NASA been given?

Something like 280 billion dollars.

Now, 75 plus shuttle flights in that time are impressive. The ISS work, Cassini, various Mars probes, New Horizons........some interesting stuff.

But I still don't think NASA has spent wisely.

Especially as Dr. Robert Zubrin points out in his book "The Case For Mars" why flying the first three missions to Mars shouldn't cost more than 30 billion dollars.

As Zubrin says

"In the real world, you can buy a lot of stuff for a billion dollars"

 

[starburst]

It could have been developed WITHOUT spending billions on pointless space travel.

Ok then despite any benefits to the aeronautical industry (and velcro) which the space program has provided, what if we could tell them back in the 60s the space race doesnt matter, let the Russians win.

No ones been back to the moon as their was no political reason to so no reason to motivate to do it.

From your comments Im guessing (as a non American) that you arent an American...as Id guess you would show at least a little pride in the fact your country was the first (and only up till now) to set foot on the moon.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

It could have been developed WITHOUT spending billions on pointless space travel.

Ok then despite any benefits to the aeronautical industry (and velcro) which the space program has provided, what if we could tell them back in the 60s the space race doesnt matter, let the Russians win.

No ones been back to the moon as their was no political reason to so no reason to motivate to do it.

From your comments Im guessing (as a non American) that you arent an American...as Id guess you would show at least a little pride in the fact your country was the first (and only up till now) to set foot on the moon.

1) I am an American 100% born and bred.

2) Pride has nothing to do with it. Practical benefits are the only potential justification NOW for continuing to spend money on space. NOTHING in the space program does one damn thing to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, or house the homeless.

We have MORE IMPORTANT THINGS to spend money on than joyriding around in space...

 

[starburst]

2) Pride has nothing to do with it. Practical benefits are the only potential justification NOW for continuing to spend money on space. NOTHING in the space program does one damn thing to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, or house the homeless.

We have MORE IMPORTANT THINGS to spend money on than joyriding around in space...

Except for keeping those involved in NASA and industry partners in a job...we shouldnt be considering allowing anyone to loose their job if anything can be done about it.

 

[Alpha_Geek]

...NOTHING in the space program does one damn thing to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, or house the homeless.

We have MORE IMPORTANT THINGS to spend money on than joyriding around in space...

Yeah, there are NEVER any technological spinoffs from the space program.


...stupid internet...
...stupid efficient solar cells...
...stupid kevlar...
...stupid Tang orange breakfast drink...
...stupid microwave ovens...
..stupid Formulaid baby food suppliment...
...stupid thermoelectric food coolers and heaters...
...stupid ultrasound...
...stupid composite air tanks for firemen. Damn their light weight!...

NOTHING good ever came from the manned space program!

 

[starburst]

The problem with these innovations, as he will likely point out, is that now we have them and the space program "doesnt give us any new benefits" never mind that NASA conduct research into climate change and other ecological areas which many consider important.

The fact is the economical climate will stabilise in time, people need to try not to panic otherwise it causes more problems, banks which are near the edge go bust as customers empty savings accounts is one, for cryin out loud someone died a couple of weeks ago during a sale because people wouldnt wait for a shop to open!

Cutting the space program budget in my mind is a bad thing, but if it is only a temporary setback to help get through this troubling time then maybe it could be a necessary action. Saying that NASA is a waste of space is a naive thing to say and just goes to prove that some people are only interested in instant results and not the interests of futhering the future of mankind. The reality is NASA do alot more than send parts up to the ISS including research into technology which you and I take for granted every day.

 

[Dayton3]

I wish people would stop claiming that the space program developed Tang and Velcro.

Both were developed well before being used in spaceflight for other reasons.

Tang was taken on ONE space mission. John Glenn's IIRC.

As for the rest.

The United States will always have unemployed, homeless, hungry people of varying number.

Whether we have a space program or not.

But there are some things a great nation must do to be considered great. And opening new frontiers is one of those things.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

We had the technology to go to Mars with the Apollo program infrastructure.

Possibly.

In 1968 NASA put together a proposal for a manned flyby of Venus, using Apollo technology. Stephen Baxter's alt-history Voyage is similar; instead of Skylab and the Shuttle NASA proceeds with developing a manned Mars program using Apollo tech. It possibly would have worked. Possibly.

 

[Neopeius]

We have MORE IMPORTANT THINGS to spend money on than joyriding around in space...

Columbus came up empty.

Seward was an fool.

That money could have been better spent on more worthy projects.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

But there are some things a great nation must do to be considered great. And opening new frontiers is one of those things.

Pie in the sky BS rhetoric.

Want a new frontier? Work on colonizing the oceans. There ARE material benefits to be gained there (new resources, new living space, new foodstuffs opportunities, etc).

 

[Dayton3]

But there are some things a great nation must do to be considered great. And opening new frontiers is one of those things.

Pie in the sky BS rhetoric.

Want a new frontier? Work on colonizing the oceans. There ARE material benefits to be gained there (new resources, new living space, new foodstuffs opportunities, etc).

There are international treaties that forbid that.

At any rate, going into space for resources and breathing room has never been the reasons for space exploration.

I find it hard to understand why someone who frequents a Star Trek board can be so down on space exploration.

Though I've seen it before.

 

[darkwing_duck1]

But there are some things a great nation must do to be considered great. And opening new frontiers is one of those things.

Pie in the sky BS rhetoric.

Want a new frontier? Work on colonizing the oceans. There ARE material benefits to be gained there (new resources, new living space, new foodstuffs opportunities, etc).

There are international treaties that forbid that.

At any rate, going into space for resources and breathing room has never been the reasons for space exploration.

I find it hard to understand why someone who frequents a Star Trek board can be so down on space exploration.

Though I've seen it before.

Because it's POINTLESS, and has no benefits.

1 billion dollars would be $10,000 worth of food, health care, etc for 100,000 families.

Could you look a poor child in the eye and honestly say "You may be wearing rags, you may be sick (and can't go to the doctor), you may be hungry, but you can be PROUD of your country, because we have people floating around in orbit taking pretty pictures of the Earth."?

Could you?

 

[Dayton3]

Pie in the sky BS rhetoric.

Want a new frontier? Work on colonizing the oceans. There ARE material benefits to be gained there (new resources, new living space, new foodstuffs opportunities, etc).

There are international treaties that forbid that.

At any rate, going into space for resources and breathing room has never been the reasons for space exploration.

I find it hard to understand why someone who frequents a Star Trek board can be so down on space exploration.

Though I've seen it before.

Because it's POINTLESS, and has no benefits.

1 billion dollars would be $10,000 worth of food, health care, etc for 100,000 families.

Could you look a poor child in the eye and honestly say "You may be wearing rags, you may be sick (and can't go to the doctor), you may be hungry, but you can be PROUD of your country, because we have people floating around in orbit taking pretty pictures of the Earth."?

Could you?

Absolutely.

I would then say

"Encourage your parents to get a job like everyone else".

I for one don't want to live in a country that carps about a handful of poor people and ignores doing great things.

 

[philbob]

NASA's budget is a piss in the ocean, cutting it is short-sighted and completely unnecessary.

totally agree cut welfair and foodstams and myraid of other social welfair programs that keep people as costly wards of the state

 

[philbob]

Trying to cut the budget deficit by defunding NASA is like trying to cure cancer by clipping your toenails.

I didn't say do it to "cut the deficit". I said redistribute the resources to more important and worthy programs...

How about instead of cutting NASA's budget they cut the budget to the armed forces, the US military spends nearly as much as the rest of the world combined when it comes to defence...how much could you do with just a small percentage of over $500 billion. Obviously Im not being serious, cutting spending would likely put soldiers lives at risk but theres possibly some way they could save money (like not spending cash on weapon improvement competitions and then cancelling them just because politians dont like that a non US company is winning).

Compare that to NASA who in recent years has fluctuated between the $15-20 billion mark.

The way forward is obviously to work with the other major Space Programs, which wont happen as US taxpayers wont like the idea of their money being put into a joint project but I for one can see this being a possible reality in the next hundred years or so.

That is a really stupid statemate when roughly 70% of the budget is just paying the troops and maintaing equitment and bases. Why shouldn't the troops be able to make competitive wages with the comerical market...unless you are advocating a return to the draft

 

[philbob]

There are international treaties that forbid that.

At any rate, going into space for resources and breathing room has never been the reasons for space exploration.

I find it hard to understand why someone who frequents a Star Trek board can be so down on space exploration.

Though I've seen it before.

Because it's POINTLESS, and has no benefits.

1 billion dollars would be $10,000 worth of food, health care, etc for 100,000 families.

Could you look a poor child in the eye and honestly say "You may be wearing rags, you may be sick (and can't go to the doctor), you may be hungry, but you can be PROUD of your country, because we have people floating around in orbit taking pretty pictures of the Earth."?

Could you?

Absolutely.

I would then say

"Encourage your parents to get a job like everyone else".

I for one don't want to live in a country that carps about a handful of poor people and ignores doing great things.

YES its time people stop feeling sorry for them selves and strive for greatness on there own

 

[starburst]

That is a really stupid statemate when roughly 70% of the budget is just paying the troops and maintaing equitment and bases. Why shouldn't the troops be able to make competitive wages with the comerical market...unless you are advocating a return to the draft

I said it wasnt serious...it was more an argument that with a much larger budget it is possible for them to save money here and there without damaging the opperation of the armed forces, I have quite a few friends in the British Army and wish our government would give them even a fraction of what yours gets...so dont be thinking Im not a supporter of anyone who puts their lives at risk for their country (be it yours or mine). There was probably a better example out their but this was the first oneto come into my head.

The argument still stands that if (what your saying is) NASA should be scrapped thats a good mayb 20k unemployed, ok so thats small but in combination to however many people have lost their jobs recently thats more and more people who wouldnt be able to contribute to stabilising the economy.

Darkwing, are you saying its just pointless now at our current level of technology combined with the other problems we are facing, or pointless full stop.

 

[Forbin]

BS. The cost and the amount of time to/from is far more than a few astronauts could handle. How many probes have been lost in the last 15 years due to technical glitches? $153M down the shitter for a lost probe is easier to swallow than $1B for a lost ship and 3 or 4 lives.

How many of them would have been saved with a crew aboard to recognize a developing problem and correct it?

This makes as much sense as a football bat. Please re-read the part I have put in italic bold print.

I read it fine the first time. My point is the missions wouldn't have been lost at all with a human crew aboard to spot and correct the technical glitches.

 

[Neopeius]

Many technologies and products are developed as a result of basic research.

Private corporations mainly invest in applied research.

It takes a nonprofit organization to invest heavily in basic research.

Not necessarily, but that's the closest thing to a sensible thing I've heard you say in a long time.