Arena, and that totally awesome fight scene

[TOS Purist]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who likes the Gorn's compound eyes. It was a REALLY cool detail and a nice deviation from the same-old same-old. Aliens aren't going to be exactly like Earth lizards (because it's NOT an Earth reptile), so the insect-like compound eyes really looked cool on an otherwise reptilian creature and helped to convey the fact that the Gorn is, in fact, an alien - and not an iguana on two legs.

 

[Joker]

^ Who am I quoting? Fans who say the Gorn's eyes need to be corrected.

So... who?

I've never seen anyone claim that the Gorn required "correcting".

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ You want to argue with me over an exact word?

Go play somewhere else.

The Gorn costume - and the eyes, in particular - have definitely had their share of detractors over the years. If you're unaware of that - and feel it's something you need to remedy - you can do the legwork yourself.

 

[Joker]

So, you quoted my post, enclosing "corrected" in quotation marks, to address something that other nameless, mysterious fans said, which had nothing to do with my post.

Seriously man. Genius.

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ You must be a newbie here who doesn't understand how things work.

I quoted your post simply to show that I was also making a comment on the Gorn's eyes, and for no other reason. None of my post was directed at you personally.

I don't know what kind of affront you think you've detected there, but there was none.

 

[TOS Purist]

Why are people such assholes on this forum? Bickering and quabbling over semantics, spewing out personal attacks like children.

For fuck's sake, Jonas. Elton said something, and you misunderstood. That's not his problem. Move past it!

 

[Jonas Grumby]

^ ???

Maybe I'm misreading the situation. I got the impression that Elton was taking offense at my quoting his post in my own comment on the Gorn, and apparently with my using the term "corrected" in quotes. Nothing I posted was meant as any kind of attack or insult to Elton. In fact, if anything, I thought he would approve of my comment, since his post sounded to me like he liked the Gorn's eyes.

I'm certainly willing to be set straight, though. But what, exactly, did I misunderstand?

 

[TOS Purist]

I try not to get involved with this kind of shit. I've seen some pretty stupid reasons to derail a thread, but to force it off-topic to bicker about someone misunderstanding the phrasing of someone else is just ridiculous.

I give up. Going back into lurker mode.

Later, kids.

 

[T'Bonz]

Come on guys.

 

[T'Bonz]

So, you quoted my post, enclosing "corrected" in quotation marks, to address something that other nameless, mysterious fans said, which had nothing to do with my post.

Seriously man. Genius.

I think you're misreading Jonas Grumby's intent. It appears to me that he is was supportive of your post, not dismissive.

You said "The only remarkable thing about the TOS Gorn was its compound eyes." I read that as "The rest of the Gorn was rubbish, but the eyes were cool."

He came in with "And I continue to be amazed at the number of fans who think that inspired detail is something that needs to be "corrected." To me, that read, "I agree with you, they were cool. Can you believe that others want to change it?"

Now had he said "Oh, the eyes are the first thing that should be changed" THEN you might have a beef.

*

This isn't one of my favorite eps. I find the Gorn to be a cheesy, BEM that wasn't worthy of the world of Trek. Just my opinion, and I had a close friend once that disagreed with me and earnestly tried to change my mind. I'd love to see the whole Gorn redone (sorry Grumby!) so that it doesn't yank me right out of the scene with "Ehhhh...grade B monster!" every time I see it.

If some of you disagree with me, I'm cool with that. It would be a dull world if we all liked the same stuff.

 

[RAMA]

So, you quoted my post, enclosing "corrected" in quotation marks, to address something that other nameless, mysterious fans said, which had nothing to do with my post.

Seriously man. Genius.

I think you're misreading Jonas Grumby's intent. It appears to me that he is was supportive of your post, not dismissive.

You said "The only remarkable thing about the TOS Gorn was its compound eyes." I read that as "The rest of the Gorn was rubbish, but the eyes were cool."

He came in with "And I continue to be amazed at the number of fans who think that inspired detail is something that needs to be "corrected." To me, that read, "I agree with you, they were cool. Can you believe that others want to change it?"

Now had he said "Oh, the eyes are the first thing that should be changed" THEN you might have a beef.

*

This isn't one of my favorite eps. I find the Gorn to be a cheesy, BEM that wasn't worthy of the world of Trek. Just my opinion, and I had a close friend once that disagreed with me and earnestly tried to change my mind. I'd love to see the whole Gorn redone (sorry Grumby!) so that it doesn't yank me right out of the scene with "Ehhhh...grade B monster!" every time I see it.

If some of you disagree with me, I'm cool with that. It would be a dull world if we all liked the same stuff.

Hmmm cheesy BEM eh? In an episode that went out of its way to say the Gorn were probably in the right after all, and worthy of living/surviving?? This episode's story is so well thought of its been remade directly in both Outer Limits and TOS. In The Outer Limits the creatures were portrayed as intelligent, crude beasts, while the Gorn..far less so...they had a starship, and motives.

Ironically, the OP praises the great fight scene, which many outside observers often use an example of the cheesiness of TOS....still, its often considered out of context (mentioned above).

Ok in terms of the actual suits...its a marvel of 60s TV!! There are few comparable full suited aliens that are so convincing, right down to the musculature...of course its comparatively crude today, but back then, compare it to Lost in Space, its nothing less than briliant.

Full OL episode:

http://video.tvguide.com/The+Outer+Limits+-+Original/Fun+And+Games/1896343

Original story(free e-book):

http://manybooks.net/titles/brownfother08Arena.html

Could also be that the arena in "Arena" was a typically chilly early morning desert, while the corridors of the Defiant were at a balmy 25 Celsius. Or vice versa; perhaps the Gorn are slowed down by high rather than low temperatures?

Timo Saloniemi

Or maybe they are two different species of Gorn...possibly from different hemispheres...one adapted for speed and cunning like velocirator, while the TOS version was like a t-rex.

RAMA

 

[T'Bonz]

Ok in terms of the actual suits...its a marvel of 60s TV!! There are few comparable full suited aliens that are so convincing, right down to the musculature...of course its comparatively crude today, but back then, compare it to Lost in Space, its nothing less than briliant.

I first saw Arena in the early 1970s. I just couldn't get past that cheesy monster.

And I never bought into the "Kirk changing his mind" bit. He spend the whole episode trying to kick the Gorn's ass, then has a change of heart at the end?

Nah.

But I know I may well be in the minority. That's fine. I have other episodes that I like much better than this one.

 

[WendellM]

I'm happy the STXI critter was never "established" to be from the Gorn species. (Assuming, of course, that the Gorn are a species, and not e.g. an interstellar alliance of lizard-like humanoid species.)

Or maybe they are two different species of Gorn...possibly from different hemispheres...one adapted for speed and cunning like velocirator, while the TOS version was like a t-rex.

Oddly enough, the Star Fleet Battles game from the late 70s somehow "foresaw" this:

The Gorn Confederation consists of three sentient races (all developed on separate planets but are so nearly identical they must have come from common stock) joined into a single political unit.
​

That seemed strange at the time since there was no real reason to imagine Gorn diversity, but perhaps it was to account for the small variation between TOS and TAS appearances (maybe with the old Mego "Gorn" being the third ).

 

[Admiral Shran]

The Gorn Confederation consists of three sentient races (all developed on separate planets but are so nearly identical they must have come from common stock) joined into a single political unit.

I don't see why the Gorn have to be seperate species. Some Humans are built for speed, others for endurance. That doesn't mean those two people are from different species. It's like the difference between Arnold Schwarzenegger (in his prime) and Lance Armstrong.

 

[WendellM]

I don't see why the Gorn have to be seperate species. Some Humans are built for speed, others for endurance.

Oh, they don't; it could indeed be individual variation. I just thought it was weird that SFB bothered with a back story before there was a real need, decades before ENT's and STXI's versions.

"Tonight on In Search Of... The Gorn Mystery. Individual variation, parallel evolution, time travel, or Reptilian Preservers?"

 

[Timo]

Interesting indeed. Then again, it's enjoyable to see some other Trek player besides the Feds described as an alliance of species. Perhaps this was done in the RPG material simply because it offered these "villains" more depth?

To explain the main difference between the TOS and ENT takes, namely the eyes, we can take a couple of routes besides "different species". Some have suggested that the TOS captain wore contacts or some other sort of eye enhancers (since it's a bit unlikely that the "more natural" ENT eyes would have been such devices). Others have offered that the ENT eyes might be the result of interbreeding of Gorn and some other species that has those "standard" eyes. It's also possible that the captain in TOS was a veteran invalidized in a past fight, and in fact happened to be eyeless and thus totally blind...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Too Much Fun]

I really hate that fight. It's okay to laugh at, but I think it's pretty pathetic for what's supposed to be a serious fight to the death. It's really the best argument for people calling Star Trek cheesy/corny/lame sixties nonsense, and that's why it bothers me. In that Onion story teasing Star Trek fans for not liking the new movie as much as the old series, they showed the slick looking special effects of the new movie and contrasted it with the scene of Kirk fighting the Gorn, and doing so made their argument seem very, very strong.

I like the design of the Gorn, though, even if the silly noises and horrible movements diminish it. What appeals to me most about it is those big fly-like eyes. I'm just so sick of aliens with clearly human eyes in Star Trek. No matter how much more sophisticated make-up gets as time goes on, it always annoys me when it just looks like a human with a funny forehead because of the eyes, and that's what that new Gorn looks like to me. My favourite Star Trek aliens are ones like the Gorn and that alien the Fleetwood Mac guy played because their eyes make them look truly otherworldly.

 

[Neutral Zone]

I watched this the other night and always find it great, takes me back to seeing it as a kid. Though i have to laugh at it now, the Gorn spooked me as a kid even though I knew it was a guy in a lizard costume. i like the idea that the Enterprise was watching some of the fight but never got to see the 1500 year old alien who set up the fight. Funny, even though not mentioned it alsoo made Spock look primative as well as the humans.