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Are Vulcans just trained to be narcissists?

XCV330 said:
stoicism: emotional responses are judgements and therefore subjective and flawed. judgements must be reviewed before acting upon and then handling in a manner determined to be virtuous. Vulcans take this to the extreme by suppressing emotions wherever possible. This may seem unhealthy for humans, but Vulcans are not humans. Emotional suppression discipline became part of the broader reforms of Surak in the wake of a nuclear holocaust. There is no reason to believe he invented it, any more than he could have invented logic, but perhaps he popularized it. Vulcans are shown to enjoy a life of luxury, art, exploration, and trade. In this they seem more to fit the stoic model of Seneca rather than Cato the Younger.

relativism: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few. Or the One. This implies Vulcans will weigh the benefits of decisions in terms of their affects on the greater good. Here the Stoicism of Zeno meets the relativism of John Stuart Mill. Or does it? Was this a Vulcan teaching, really, or was it part of Spock's personal rule of life?
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I always appreciate a good Stoic philosopher reference.
 
Strikes me that Tuvok may be overcompensating after his teenage drama with Jara, where he almost abandoned Vulcan logic and gave in to his emotions. Whatever they taught him after that experience may have resulted in him being even more 'suppressed' emotionally than the average Vulcan.

A little bit like how Worf tries his hardest to live up to Klingon ideals (even though most Klingons never do) because he's compensating for his upbringing by Humans.
 
My thoughts on Vulcans is that with a huge population they are going to be just as varied with their ideology on their world as humans are as ours. What's logical is going to depend on the individual. We only see a miniscule bunch of their people in the franchise and a lot of them are antagonists to the characters or at least obstructions but I'm sure most Vulcans are just normal people going about their daily life. If you did a show just set on Vulcan or Qon'os you could delve deep into characters and you would get a bunch of different viewpoints that aren't the cliché of the monoculture, same way here when we do a film here with like Asians or Aboriginals or Native American you see they ain't all painted with the one brush. But with one character and a bunch of guests every so often that's how it turns out in space.
 
Many (not all) Vulcans come across as somewhat condescending. At least, to me.

I don't believe that attitude is entirely logical. Even if you believe logic is superior to emotions, condescension is a partly emotive response, which I wouldn't expect from someone that has his emotions fully under control.

Also, a logical person would understand that such condescension is not conducive to convincing other species (such as humans) that embracing logic is the superior approach. It will, in fact, create more of a barrier for others to do so.

But of course, condescending Vulcans make for more interesting stories and scripts :)
 
Vulcans used to be slaves to their passions just as humans were, perhaps even more so. Maybe they see humans the way we see flat earthers, people who ignore an incredibly obvious truth.
 
at Quark's said:
Many (not all) Vulcans come across as somewhat condescending. At least, to me.

I don't believe that attitude is entirely logical. Even if you believe logic is superior to emotions, condescension is a partly emotive response, which I wouldn't expect from someone that has his emotions fully under control.

Also, a logical person would understand that such condescension is not conducive to convincing other species (such as humans) that embracing logic is the superior approach. It will, in fact, create more of a barrier for others to do so.

But of course, condescending Vulcans make for more interesting stories and scripts :)
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It's quite possible they don't even realize their condescending tones.
 
Well. I think each character and race represents a part of the human psyche. So, Vulcan would be my pick for the planet of Narcissism. Vulcans eschew all emotion. They view love as a disease. They are arrogant, superior and cold. This is not complete narcissism which manifests as sort of soul vampirism (watch horror movies) but it's the beginning.
Characteristics of Narcissists. Vulcans do not display them all all the time. That's why it's a list. Think about it.
  1. Grandiose sense of self-importance. This is the belief that your contribution and presence are essential to the happiness, success, or equilibrium of other people and any enterprises or relationships. “The project would have tanked if I hadn’t been on the team.” “If it weren’t for me, who knows where my spouse would have ended up!”
    . Let's view Spock here. He does have a very high opinion of himself and 85% of the time his calculations are wrong.
  2. Preoccupation with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love. This describes the belief that you are capable of exceptionally high levels of achievement even when your skills or abilities provide no evidence of this being possible. “If I get this job, I’ll soon be writing my own paycheck and running the company.” “I’ll ace the LSAT and get a free ride to Yale law school. Wait and see!”
    . Spock admits to Data that he envies him and his perfection. He cannot admit a flaw. or he has to have that admission dragged from him. Humility is a blockage for Spock. who btw has a mother would.
  3. Belief that he or she is special and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people or institutions. This resembles the “I want to talk to the manager” mindset in that narcissists firmly believe that they should only have to deal with the top-level person in any institution. They try to insert themselves in high-status cliques, meetings, or social groups even if they’re unwanted. “Yes, the director and I go way back; we’re good friends and I know she’ll be eager to hear my perspectives." “I’ll be speaking with the CEO to set up a meeting to talk about these new directives and let them know what my thoughts are on the matter.”
    . Spock is not a complete or malignant narcissist but Vulcan is the only way.
  4. Need for excessive admiration. The narcissist isn’t satisfied with a compliment or pat on the back when others offer them as a part of natural conversation. They demand that others admire their appearance, accomplishments, skills, or existence. The admiration of others is what feeds the narcissist. “Isn’t it amazing how the color of this shirt sets off my eyes?” Boasting is second nature to narcissists, and compliments are typically recounted innumerable times to others as proof of their superiority.
    . I recall many times Spock speaking dismissively of humans. "You humans!" In all fairness the humans do it to him too.
  5. Sense of entitlement. Narcissists may believe that success takes hard work – but only for others, not for them. They totally believe that they deserve the best tickets, the top score, the nicest room, or the best seat in the house. They don’t even have to verbalize this belief as their behavior and actions clearly communicate their sense of entitlement.
    This is NOT Spock.
  6. Interpersonally exploitive behavior. Narcissists see other people as tools. Their lack of self-awareness is paralleled by a lack of awareness that others exist as individuals with feelings, needs, and desires. “Get out of my way.” “Do me a favor and give up your place in line for me.” Whatever they ask for, it’s in their own selfish interest and they suffer no guilt for expecting others to sacrifice for them.
    Not Spock either.
  7. Lack of empathy. This is the cold inability to accurately recognize how other people feel. This speaks to the narcissist's lack of emotional awareness or depth. It is not always that narcissists don’t “care” about another’s feelings, it is just that they are unaware that others might even have those feelings. Sometimes Spock.
  8. Envy of others or belief that others are envious of him or her. This describes the narcissist’s constant comparison of themselves to others, wishing for themselves the success others experience, and the false belief that everyone else is envious of them. That’s how they keep their egos intact. Being perceived as “normal” or “subpar” would represent an ego wound they could not handle. A narcissist might say, “Everyone notices me when I enter the room. They know that they’ll never be as successful as me.” Being described as in any way HUMAN is insulting to him.

  9. Demonstration of arrogant and haughty behaviors or attitudes. Arrogance and conceit are traits that are often noticed first in narcissists. This is evidenced by disrespect for the positions or rights of others and the narcissist’s willingness to demand and expect that others will bend to their will. Like exploitative behavior, this behavior can be easily noticed without the narcissist having to say a word. They’ll break in lines, use patronizing tones, and act as if they have every right to take away what is rightfully someone else’s.
    . Spock is patronizing. No doubt about it.

In addition to the currently referenced nine symptoms, an alternative model of diagnosing personality disorders, such as NPD, was proposed in the DSM-V. This model is characterized by four specific areas of functioning in which personal disorders are most likely to be located. Among these four, an individual who has moderate or greater impairment in these areas would be considered to be evidencing a personality disorder:

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  • Identity. For narcissists, this is excessive focus on others to support their own self-definition and excessive reference on others as means to maintain their own self-esteem, as well as overly estimated self-appraisal and a tendency to be overly pleased or inordinately displeased with oneself. For narcissists, it’s not what’s inside that matters, it’s what outsiders perceive when they gaze on the narcissist that shapes their identity.
  • Self-direction. Narcissists tend to keep their eyes on the prize that they feel others would prize. They are driven by a desire to prove they are superior to others. This drive is often coupled with a sense of entitlement that leaves them feeling that they should be above having to work for any goal.
  • . Spock is driven to prove to Vulcan that he is superior.
  • Empathy. This area of functioning is what allows humans to connect with and understand the plights of others. Unfortunately, narcissists only reference the reactions or actions of others as they relate to the narcissist’s own behavior. Even these “readings” of others are out of focus, as narcissists aren’t able to accurately assess their effects on others. They may attend to someone’s expressed feelings in order to leverage the person to the narcissist’s own benefit, but there’s no awareness that goes beyond the practical.
  • Intimacy. This is where the narcissist’s true nature and shortcomings often hurt others the most. Narcissists are unable to forge or maintain more than superficial relationships. They don’t have the emotional capacity to relate in authentic, intimate ways. Every relationship is seen as a tool to feed the narcissist’s ego. SNW is hinting that Spock toys with Chapel's feelings. He gets into a relationship with T'Pring and then refuses to be an actual husband and live with her and this is apparently the reason for the divorce. Narcissists have a mother wound usually in males. Women can be narcissists too but they are covert. The male wants the woman to fill the wound and then go away so he can individuate but he can't do that so he seeks another woman, hence the womanizer. I haven't even begun to analyze Kirk's narcissism. McCoy too, it seems married and then went off to space and his wife found another man. All three men attract women and then abandon them with regularity.
 
Cut and paste job aside, Vulcans are not narcissists. It's simply not how they present.

Oh, sure some may be full of themselves, condescending, etc. That doesn't make someone a narcissist. I think part of the problem is the term "Narcissist" has become diluted with common usage.

The actual, clinical term really doesn't apply.
 
A Vulcan Hitler would be widely accepted (on Vulcan) if he could reason a genocide logically.

Like General Zod did on Krypton

But it would have to come after Surak. Before him nobody on Vulcan would give a sehlat's ass for logic.
 
I don't see Vulcans' mindset as narcissistic. A Vulcan centers on logic, and judges those around him based on their adherence to it (or lack thereof). A narcissist centers on himself.
 
1001001 said:
Cut and paste job aside, Vulcans are not narcissists. It's simply not how they present.

Oh, sure some may be full of themselves, condescending, etc. That doesn't make someone a narcissist. I think part of the problem is the term "Narcissist" has become diluted with common usage.

The actual, clinical term really doesn't apply.
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Ugh, you're so right. The misuse of clinical terms makes me so depressed!:weep:

;)
 
This is such an odd assertion. None of the tendencies and characteristics of narcissism apply to the tenants of the "Surakian" philosophy as we've seen it. I'm pretty sure a planet full of narcissists would not get much done. You'd have to have people who can be manipulated, gaslit, and "othered."

I've always assumed the Vulcan philosophy was meant to be closer to Buddhism - with desire and ignorance as the cause of suffering (specifically violence). Eliminate desire and you get peace. But like any philosophy or religion there are degrees, like the difference between Buddhists in Myanmar and those in Bhutan. Some Vulcans maintain a balance. Some swing to the left or right of center. And most people just get on with their lives, work, live, raise families, etc. Some adhere to doctrine, some interpret doctrine. There are sects. It makes for more interesting story-telling
 
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