Are there Vulcans that hate Logic??

[ED-209]

Are there Vulcans that hate Logic?? Is there a rebellious group that have music about how emotional they are and how Logic is oppressive (Sex Pistols style)?

We know there are logic extremists, does the opposite exist? There was the group on Enterprise but I'm talking something thats more part of their everyday culture and exists within their society.

 

[NCC-73515]

sybok

 

[F. King Daniel]

Sybok. The Vulcans in ENT: "Fusion"

Every single Romulan.

 

[ED-209]

I really meant within the society itself, not an offshoot or anything like that but an actual part of their culture.

 

[Spock .]

Spock didn't hate logic, in fact, he aspired to it, but he did not always believe that logic was the only way.

Ambassador Spock: I always had a different vision than my father, the ability to see beyond pure logic. He considered it weak. But I have discovered it to be a source of extraordinary strength. Sarek would have seen this mission of reunification as a fool's errand. Somehow I think it is not. Logic cannot explain why, I only know that I must pursue this.

 

[Tim Thomason]

The v'tosh katur from Fusion were literally "Vulcans without logic" (that's the given translation), although the group in that episode said they believed in logic, just that it could be complimented with emotion. No one really "hates" logic, but maybe the system proposed by Surak of a logic-centric society.

 

[Takeru]

I hope we see vulcans in Discovery season 3 and that they have abandoned Surak's teachings, it really makes no sense that societies change so little in Star Trek over time.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

It’s implied several times in various episodes than most Vulcans suppression of emotion is a necessity because their unfiltered emotions are violent.

I think it would be cool if in the future, enough alien DNA has been introduced that they no longer need to live in extremes and can enjoy emotion without being controlled by it.

 

[Takeru]

It’s implied several times in various episodes than most Vulcans suppression of emotion is a necessity because their unfiltered emotions are violent.

That could just be surakian propaganda most vulcans internalized over the centuries and don't question anymore. Romulans do fine not suppressing their emotions.

 

[BillJ]

Romulans do fine not suppressing their emotions.

Do they? They live in a totalitarian state where they are practiced in watching everything they say and do. It is just a different means of suppressing the violence.

 

[Kor]

I really meant within the society itself, not an offshoot or anything like that but an actual part of their culture.

Vulcans are highly conformist, not tolerating variation from their social norms (like most aliens in Star Trek). So Vulcans who don't adhere to strict logic end up leaving the planet and heading out on their own.

Kor

 

[JirinPanthosa]

That could just be surakian propaganda most vulcans internalized over the centuries and don't question anymore. Romulans do fine not suppressing their emotions.

Sarek suggests otherwise. Picard experienced his emotions first hand.

It could be a specific gene though that causes that so it does not apply the same to all Vulcans.

 

[Spock .]

It also seems that Vulcans have the capacity to change. The longer Spock was among humans, the more "human" he became. The more Sarek worked as an ambassador among humans, the more he picked up their traits. I believe that Vulcans are not naturally logical. I believe that develop their logic through schooling. The socially acceptable behaviors of Vulcan are the ones that Vulcans practice.

As the result, Vulcans do not naturally have a preference for logic. They suppress the emotions that they have. The longer they stay among humans, where it is acceptable to have feelings, the more they allow their emotions to show.

 

[Takeru]

Do they? They live in a totalitarian state where they are practiced in watching everything they say and do. It is just a different means of suppressing the violence.

Suppressing the violence but not the emotion. The romulan way is proof that is is possible for vulcans to live with emotion and not blow themselves up. Obviously a totalitarian police state is not a goal vulcans should have but no one says those two ways are the only ones.

Sarek suggests otherwise.

When Sarek lost control in TNG he didn't become violent, he became weepy and regretful and in Discovery it was the logic extremists who resorted to violence and terrorist attacks. So I really don't think it's so easy to claim that emotions lead to violence for vulcans.
Sarek himself grew up with Surak's teachings and has been indoctrinated since birth, I wouldn't blindly believe anything he says, he's not impartial.

 

[BillJ]

Suppressing the violence but not the emotion. The romulan way is proof that is is possible for vulcans to live with emotion and not blow themselves up. Obviously a totalitarian police state is not a goal vulcans should have but no one says those two ways are the only ones.

I think it shows there has to be some sort of mechanism in place to hold their violent outbursts in check. And it doesn't look like pre-Surakian Vulcan society had come up with any other means to control the violence.

When Sarek lost control in TNG he didn't become violent, he became weepy and regretful...

He was 202 years old.

 

[Spock .]

What the Vulcans couldn't comprehend was the middle ground, the moderation that humans were able to utilize.

The Romulans and Vulcans each carried emotions to the extreme.

Romulans chose to express all emotion, while Vulcans chose to suppress all emotion.

 

[Takeru]

I think it shows there has to be some sort of mechanism in place to hold their violent outbursts in check. And it doesn't look like pre-Surakian Vulcan society had come up with any other means to control the violence.

Sure, some mechanism is needed but we humans need that too. We learn morality, social norms and customs as children and laws, law enforcement and the fear of punishment keep us mostly in check.

The fact that romulan society has thrived for thousands of years after leaving vulcan is proof that the suppression of emotion isn't necessary. That romulans live in a totalitarian state is not proof that this is the only alternative to suppressing emotions.

Spoiler: Picard episode 1

The romulans living with Picard show emotions and do not live in a totalitarian state and they look and act like well adjusted normal people.

 

[BillJ]

Spoiler: Picard

The romulans living with Picard show emotions and do not live in a totalitarian state and they look and act like well adjusted normal people.

Spoiler: Picard

You mean after living a lifetime in a totalitarian state and being members of the Tal Shiar?

 

[JirinPanthosa]

The Vulcans were explicitly an aggressive warlike race before coming to logic, Gambit also directly supports that.

Whether it led to violence for all Vulcans is debatable but it certainly led to widespread violence.

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Spoiler: Picard

You mean after living a lifetime in a totalitarian state and being members of the Tal Shiar?

Spoiler: “Picard”

Also, the fact that an employee with no social leverage mirrors the demeanor or an employer with lots of social leverage does not mean they are showing their true feelings. It just means they are acutely aware Romulans are only safe on Earth when the humans around them are feeling disarmed.