Are there any inherent advantages to a one nacelled ship design?

[Tribble puncher]

I've always liked the design of the Kelvin, the old Saladin class, and even the Freedom class. I know the latter two aren't really fan favorites, and at first glance, other than cost, I can't really thing of any sort of advantage to only having one warp engine on a ship....especially with the Kelvin, which apparently seemed to be a deep space exploratory vessel (which seems odd), I would Imagine ships like the Freedom and Saladin on the other hand probably being built to operate in conjunction with other ships, and if the do go on solo missions, help is no more than a few days away. What are your thoughts on one nacelled ships? are they throwaway designs? is there a hidden genius to them? Practical/Unpractical in universe?

 

[Timo]

Well, the obvious advantage is a convincing one: one X is indeed cheaper than two X, for all X, barring extraordinary circumstances. So essentially Starfleet gets two one-nacelled ships for the price of one two-naceller or whatever.

Also, a warp engine is dead weight when not at warp (even if the powerplant part may have its uses), so fewer engines mean less hindrance to impulse movement or landing maneuvers or the like.

A single nacelle also blocks less of the field of fire of the phasers...

Would two nacelles give redundancy? When Archer's ship takes damage, it seems more like Trip manages to repair a certain percentage of the hurt nacelle - neither is utterly down for the count. Repairing X percent of nacelle capacity (warp coils?) might not depend on the number of nacelles much.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Ronald Held]

More nacelles=higher maximum warp speed?

 

[Spot261]

I'm thinking the simple fact of cost efficiency would make a short ranged vessel more likely to have a single nacelle. They would be cheaper to build and as @Timo points out more maneuverable and economical at impulse due to reduced mass.

I'm suspecting the main advantage to multiple nacelles would be redundancy in the event of damage/catastrophic failure along with distribution of wear and tear.

 

[C.E. Evans]

I tend to think that the number of nacelles a ship has is dependent on just what works best for a particular design. Two may be the optimum number for the majority of designs, but some can work just as well with just one, three, or even four, IMO. Maybe it's a case of the efficiency of the warp core coupled with the power requirements of a particular design that determines how many nacelles it needs.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

A slimmer ship profile making it more difficult to hit.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I've always liked the design of the Kelvin, the old Saladin class, and even the Freedom class. I know the latter two aren't really fan favorites, and at first glance, other than cost, I can't really thing of any sort of advantage to only having one warp engine on a ship....especially with the Kelvin, which apparently seemed to be a deep space exploratory vessel (which seems odd), I would Imagine ships like the Freedom and Saladin on the other hand probably being built to operate in conjunction with other ships, and if the do go on solo missions, help is no more than a few days away. What are your thoughts on one nacelled ships? are they throwaway designs? is there a hidden genius to them? Practical/Unpractical in universe?

Why do military aircraft sometimes have one engine or two? It's complex, and it depends on the requirement for the aircraft, where it will operate and what it will be doing.

The F-16 Falcon, for example, is a single-engined fighter with a very powerful engine. It's light weight and agile with decent range, much moreso than the twin-engined F/A-18. But when it came time to decide if they wanted a naval version of the -16, the Navy declined; they didn't like the idea of a single-engine aircraft operating over water, and they didn't think the -16 was tough enough to handle carrier deck landings. Their concern was a valid one since very early versions of the -16 tended to turn into lawn darts at high-G, but also the fact that the F/A-18's original engine, while somewhat less powerful, was also a little bit more reliable overall, plus having two of them offset the power deficit (unfortunately being a much heavier plane completely eliminated this offset, which is why the Super Hornet is a thing).

Now, this isn't necessarily applicable to starships; we've seen that on two-nacelled vessels, damage to a single nacelle can be catastrophic, but more than that, damaging one nacelle is enough to render it immobile. So it isn't a question of redundancy; you can't go to warp with just one good nacelle and if something happens to your engine it can be REALLY bad for your ship. So in this case, it might actually be the opposite factor: a single nacelle is more reliable in a combat situation, and easier to protect with armor plating and forcefields. It almost certainly allows the ship to be more maneuverable at sublight speeds and possibly even at FTL velocities. The disadvantage would be that the larger engine sustains a lot more wear and tear since it operates at higher energies and temperatures than two smaller nacelles sharing the load otherwise would. That would make the single nacelle more maintenance intensive and/or prone to failure without regular refurbishing.

Kelvin was an unusual ship for other reasons too, not least of which was armament. No other starship we've seen has turret-mounted photon launchers like that, nor do they have such weapons in that high abundance. That, plus the single nacelle and the unusually large crew complement, may suggest Kelvin was a special type of vessel, maybe some sort of colonial/stronghold defense vessel, like the Starfleet equivalent of an SSBN.

 

[ALF]

If you get caught in a giant space spiderweb, it'll be easier to escape with 1 nacelle.

 

[Unicron]

More nacelles=higher maximum warp speed?

For me, it would probably depend on the warp core (power plant) along with the nacelle design. More nacelles might equal a higher speed in some designs, but not others. With regards to having a single nacelle, the main advantage I've inferred is their use on smaller, more agile vessels like scouts and destroyers which are intended to supplement larger vessels as needed. I've also seen it inferred that having two or more nacelles gives you a bit of redundancy in the event one is damaged, though I can't recall exactly how that's been handled canonically. I'd think a ship with only one functional nacelle might still be able to generate a warp field, but not at the same strength or speed as both or all nacelles would normally allow. It would depend on the degree of damage and the presence of a miraculous chief engineer.

 

[Lord Other]

..we've seen that on two-nacelled vessels, damage to a single nacelle can be catastrophic, but more than that, damaging one nacelle is enough to render it immobile. So it isn't a question of redundancy; you can't go to warp with just one good nacelle and if something happens to your engine it can be REALLY bad for your ship.

I think perhaps you are forgetting Voyager episode, "Night" where the dialogue speaks directly to the contrary when the port nacelle was hit..

CHAKOTAY: Status.
KIM: The port nacelle's been ruptured. We're venting plasma.
JANEWAY: Can you get us out of here on one engine, Tom?
PARIS: I think so.

..and in the Enterprise episode "Twilight" the story is driven by plot point of the starboard warp nacelle being inoperable..

TUCKER: We should have hull plating and torpedoes in the next couple of hours. The warp drive's another question. The starboard nacelle is a lost cause, half the coils have been fused.
T'POL: How long to repair them?
TUCKER: If we were at Jupiter station, three weeks. Out here I'd have to rebuild the coil assembly from scratch. Six months minimum. For now the best I can give you is a warp one point seven.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I think perhaps you are forgetting Voyager episode

If by "forgetting" you mean "deliberately ignore because it is a Voyager episode," I certainly am.

and in the Enterprise episode "Twilight" the plot is driven by plot point of the starboard warp nacelle being inoperable..

TUCKER: We should have hull plating and torpedoes in the next couple of hours. The warp drive's another question. The starboard nacelle is a lost cause, half the coils have been fused.
T'POL: How long to repair them?
TUCKER: If we were at Jupiter station, three weeks. Out here I'd have to rebuild the coil assembly from scratch. Six months minimum. For now the best I can give you is a warp one point seven.

Yes, this for a ship with a maximum velocity slightly better than warp 5. The addition of the second engine didn't do them much good, so I don't think redundancy is really a selling point. Hell, the TOS Enterprise managed to move faster than that under impulse power in "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

 

[Lord Other]

If by "forgetting" you mean "deliberately ignore because it is a Voyager episode," I certainly am.

Then your observations on how warp drive works would likewise be coloured by your prejudice toward that material. While I'm certainly aware of my prejudices (such as not considering Enterprise or First Contact to be cogent with material in TOS or with TNG) I wouldn't leave out pertinent information pertaining to such in a discussion because that does a disservice to the intended audience.

Yes, this for a ship with a maximum velocity slightly better than warp 5. The addition of the second engine didn't do them much good, so I don't think redundancy is really a selling point. Hell, the TOS Enterprise managed to move faster than that under impulse power in "Where No Man Has Gone Before."

I am hesitant to ask, but how did you ascertain that the Enterprise was moving faster than Warp Factor 5 in "WNMHGB"?

 

[Crazy Eddie]

I wouldn't leave out pertinent information pertaining to such in a discussion

I didn't leave out pertinent information. I left out information that comes from Star Trek Voyager.

I am hesitant to ask, but how did you ascertain that the Enterprise was moving faster than Warp Factor 5 in "WNMHGB"?

Well, it was certainly moving faster than Warp 1.7, considering they were able to travel from the galactic edge to Delta Vega under only impulse power. Moreover, by the time Gary Mitchell's powers start to really manifest, Spock mentions Delta Vega being only "a few light days away" which implies they are already near that system and have been heading towards it for some time. Given that the edge of the galaxy probably isn't within a few light years of a well-charted and well known Federation planet, they would have to have been moving at least warp 3 or 4 to get that far in something less than a geologic age.

It's simple, really. To reach Delta Vega from the point Spock first makes the suggestion, they would have to be traveling at light speed or better. But to get to that point AT ALL, they would have to be traveling faster still.

Conclusion: 1701 with both nacelles fried is still faster (probably much faster) than NX-01 with one nacelle fried.

A further datapoint: USS Kelvin has its warp drive knocked out by a torpedo hit from the Narada. 30 years later, the Enterprise is also hit by a torpedo and has its warp drive temporarily disabled until engineering can repair radiation leaks and get the ship underway again. The same thing basically happens in Wrath of Khan when Reliant strafes the Enterprise's engine room and knocks out their main reactor, and then Enterprise does the same thing to Reliant in exactly the same way.

 

[Timo]

There is nothing in the TOS pilot to establish the distance between the galactic barrier and the automated lithium cracking plant. For all we know, said plant was Kirk's base camp for braving the barrier. Or one of the many key assets in place for the project, at any rate.

Indeed, you're once again leaving out key information (the stuff you consider "nonpertinent"): Kelso makes it very clear that 1) the main drive is fried for good, and 2) he hasn't activated the impulse drive once yet. The ship has in fact done zero "traveling" since the barrier debacle - she has been coasting.

One engine out situations are rarely mentioned in Trek, but we have heard two of those described, and both have given the wounded ship FTL capacity she would otherwise lack. On the other hand, we have seen plenty of ships get hit on just one nacelle; whether this has knocked out warp or not has not always been specified. But a chase typically features nacelle hits (what else is there to hit in the stern part of the fleeing ship?) that don't force the hit ship to drop to sublight at once. Was that nacelle knocked out or not?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Lord Other]

I didn't leave out pertinent information. I left out information that comes from Star Trek Voyager.

Are you trying to be funny?

Well, it was certainly moving faster than Warp 1.7, considering they were able to travel from the galactic edge to Delta Vega under only impulse power. Moreover, by the time Gary Mitchell's powers start to really manifest, Spock mentions Delta Vega being only "a few light days away" which implies they are already near that system and have been heading towards it for some time. Given that the edge of the galaxy probably isn't within a few light years of a well-charted and well known Federation planet, they would have to have been moving at least warp 3 or 4 to get that far in something less than a geologic age.

It's simple, really. To reach Delta Vega from the point Spock first makes the suggestion, they would have to be traveling at light speed or better. But to get to that point AT ALL, they would have to be traveling faster still.

This is kind of bleeding over from our other discussion about inertia and warp drive where you inferred time dilation effects and the use of impulse drive to explain away visual evidence that warp drive has some kind of inertial referent. I'm not going to mix words here. You either are willfully ignoring material or construing evidence in such a way as to make it a convoluted mess. Dialogue specifically contradicts every point you make, sometimes painfully so.

"Captain's log, Star date 1312.9. Ship's condition, heading back on impulse power only. Main engines burned out. The ship's space warp ability gone. Earth bases which were only days away are now years in the distance.."

That said, the Enterprise CAN be a "few light days away" from Delta Vega- say three light days out when Kirk & Spock have their discussion in the briefing room, travel there at 89% of the speed of light and make it there via time dilation effects in only a day and half or thereabouts shipboard time. If you doubt what I have to say, you can input the values yourself in this handy dandy time dilation calculator. There is no indication given verbal or otherwise in the episode that the vessel is moving faster than c after it's encounter with the Energy Barrier, or of a distance from Delta Vega to any thing other than the Enterprise given in the briefing room. You're making inferences wholly unsupported by any evidence provided.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

From what I can tell, you need Warp Engines in pairs to go at high warp speeds, otherwise you're crippled to very low warp speeds if you're stuck on relying on 1 set of Nacelles.

The problem is a little bit different from the Helicopter Propulsion Problem.
A Helicopter usually needs some sort of Counter Force to keep it from spinning around endlessly, ergo the Tail Rotor or other equivalent solutions.

But with Warp Nacelles, if you cripple just one Nacelle, their maximum Warp Speed drops by way more than half, closer to 90-95% maximum possible speed.

So I would assume it has to be due to balanced Warp Field Geometry you can perform with pairs of Warp Nacelle fields.

 

[Tenacity]

More nacelles=higher maximum warp speed?

Might also have something to do with the physical size of the ship, how big a warp field needs to be generated to enclose the ship. Above a certain size a second engine become a requirement, one example if you're operating a "flying starbase.".

Worf said that without the saucer, the engineering section was better in a fight, owing to less "bulk."

The F-16 Falcon, for example, is a single-engined fighter

It was once described to me be thusly, below twenty thousand feet the F16 (with one engine) is superior to a F15 (with two), above twenty thousand the F15 becomes superior. The Navy needs two engines in their F18 supers (partially) because they need the growler version to be able to get as high as possible.

Which plane is sent on which mission depend on what you except it to be doing.

Also, as mentioned above, two engines carrys security if one should be disabled.

 

[XCV330]

ST starships don't actually NEED nacelles. Galaxy class saucers were warp capable without them. They might be REALLY important, but not absolutely necessary, and some species do without them at all.
Harley Davidson and Indian have both been mounting V-twin engines in motorcycles transversely since before world war 1.
BMW has been using flat twins instead since at least the 30's in their bikes. Neither of these methods imply its the only way to do it. You could also just have a really big single cylinder thumper, though it wont be as efficient (easier to repair though) . In fact, those big thumpers are often used for larger dirt bikes and dual sports.

if I were to guess in lore, I'd say a single-nacelle ship would be useful for frontier work where you ships that are not first-rate but need to be able to do their own repair work and operate on the periphery for a long period of time.

 

[Crazy Eddie]

You either are willfully ignoring material or construing evidence in such a way as to make it a convoluted mess.

It IS a convoluted mess. Has been for years.

That said, the Enterprise CAN be a "few light days away" from Delta Vega- say three light days out when Kirk & Spock have their discussion in the briefing room, travel there at 89% of the speed of light and make it there via time dilation effects in only a day and half or thereabouts shipboard time.

Sure, but they wouldn't have been a few light days away from Delta-Vega when they crossed the barrier.

And to allude to the earlier discussion, if you're assuming that there is some sort of subspace fuckery going on with impulse drive anyway (which there almost certainly is) then there's no reason to assume the ship would be limited to subluminal velocity under impulse power. That's kind of what the "years away" in Kirk's log entry implies: they could still travel dozens of light years to get to a starbase, but it probably wouldn't take them a whole generation to do it.

3 light days would be a distance of about 540 AUs. If Enterprise flew a brachistochrone trajectory and accelerated at a constant rate of 15 Gs, it would cover that distance in about two and a half weeks. Bump that up to 30Gs constant thrust, and it would cover that distance in almost exactly 12 days. Significantly, the ship's average velocity would be relatively low... OTOH, at the deceleration phase it would achieve a maximum velocity of about 508 times the speed of light.

Now here's where it dovetails back to the original discussion: if a warp factor is a unit of acceleration rather than absolute velocity (and it pretty much has to be) then the travel time to Delta Vega finally makes sense. Enterprise CAN travel interstellar distances under impulse power, and exceeding light speed is trivially easy. But impulse engines have the problem that you also have to decelerate in order to actually reach your destination, an the deceleration curve of impulse engines is far more limited compared to warp engines. Where where an acceleration at warp 8 might be, say, 180,000 Gs, an impulse engine might be able to achieve only a tiny fraction of that even on a good day (30 to 40gs), while a 22nd century impulse engine (like the kind the Valiant had that "wasn't strong enough" to resist an ion storm) would be slower still, closer to 10Gs. That would leave impulse engines to be a high-efficiency short range drive for situations where warp drive might be overkill or inappropriate altogether, such as orbital maneuvers or short interplanetary journeys within tightly packed moons.

For the record: at 980,000G constant acceleration (what I would gather to be about warp 6), the Enterprise would be able to reach Delta Vega from that position in 3.8 hours. At that same acceleration, making a beeline for four days, the Enterprise would cover a distance of about 121 light years. These are the kinds of speeds that seem more consistent with what we're seeing all over TOS; "The Immunity Syndrome" and "That Which Survives" comes to mind as the Enterprise achieving first incredibly high velocities for no obvious reason. The answer is: it's not about velocity, the Enterprise sometimes reaches many tens of thousands of times the speed of light, but it has to SLOW DOWN for the second half of its trip in order to not completely overshoot its destination, and that long slowdown stage accounts for part of the travel time.

If you doubt what I have to say, you can input the values yourself in this handy dandy time dilation calculator.

Time dilation has never been a factor in Star Trek and probably never will be.

 

[Timo]

At this stage, the whole nacelle business is delightfully ambiguous. We might e.g. decide those things are perfectly analogous to the propellers of today's ships: more is good mainly for better channeling the output of the powerplant, and zero is disastrous for propulsion while losing one out of many may hamper maneuvering in addition to decreasing speed even though having one is sufficient as such - but the powerplant can be tied to something completely different, too, such as a pump-style propulsion system, or even air propellers or turbosails or whatnot.

Or then it can be something completely different and incredibly complicated and futuristic and cool.

As for the "Where No Man" issue, when Kirk's ship popped out of the barrier, we did not get any specific indication whether she did so under her own (failing) warp power, or barrier-provided mysterious power, or what. We have no great need to think the ship would have stopped dead on her tracks right after leaving the purple haze, though: she may have covered some distance at FTL before Kirk ordered the engines shut down (at which point they drew their last gasp and quit) or before the barrier magic died down.

It's not as if the proximity to Delta Vega comes as a surprise to anybody anyway. Spock delivers the line with his usual pedantry; Kirk doesn't punch the air and yell "Yes, we're saved!" or otherwise appear surprised. Perhaps Mitchell specifically set the course for this star system when departing the barrier haze, on Kirk's offscreen orders or according to plan. In other words, when it doesn't surprise our heroes, it should not bother us too much, either.

Timo Saloniemi