Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Galaxy?

[Temis the Vorta]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

The Cardies are certainly the best written and acted race. But done properly, I think the Romulans and the Borg - yes, the Borg - would be duking it out for top billing.

Here's typical “speech” (babble) by the Space Cavemen (TNG-type “Klingons”):

“Meesa H-O-N-O-R! Yousa H-O-N-O-R? Meesa honor Exskreez me! Yousa come up heres fight meesa you insult meesa H-O-N-O-R Hello daddee! It be bad bombin' but yousa must fight meesa to death,H-O-N-O-R! Meesa H-O-N-O-R! Yousa no H-O-N-O-R! Exskreez me!”

I see your point, but these "Gunguns" at least have the sense to come out and say, "weesa pretty annoying, hah? No wonder weesa make all the prequels suck."

Sorry to interrupt to Cardi Love-Fest, however, IMO the BORG where most interesting Race in Trek. The Collective like Seven is unique in all the Galaxy. I can't imagine Trek without the BORG, how bout you

I think a lot of folks hate the Borg with the fiery passion of a billion supernovas, because of how badly they've been bungled by pushing them out there as this unstoppable, existentially terrifying force, and then neutering them by having Janeway et al turn them into chumps. But given the proper respect, yes, the Borg could be among Trek's best.

 

[trekkerguy]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Star...

Turk?!?


Just messin. No, they got alot of face time for sure,
but I found the Romulans far more interesting.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I agree that the Borg got screwed over by bad writing. That never happened to the Cardassians--and I think the fact that they were set up as so multifaceted from the very beginning meant that viewers were less likely to infer the actions of one Cardassian onto another. It was a lot harder to destroy them.

 

[Myasishchev]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Sorry to interrupt to Cardi Love-Fest, however, IMO the BORG where most interesting Race in Trek. The Collective like Seven is unique in all the Galaxy. I can't imagine Trek without the BORG, how bout you

Yes, and it would be better. Or at least, Trek without anything after BoBW or possibly I, Borg, would be.

The Borg, after I, Borg, were probably the most boring and routinely mishandled Trek species ever conceived. Klingons might have been a monoculture, but at least they had *a* culture. The Borg were apparently all a bunch of unwilling victims, and despite the obvious advantages the Borg way of life had, and this undermined any treatment of them as anything other than the Big Bad, and that's not why I watch Star Trek. I'll grant my memories of VOY are hazy, but I believe that to be a basically accurate characterization. I certainly don't recall anyone trying to defend being a Borg, although it doesn't really seem all that bad.

After I, Borg, they were nothing more than a bunch of Space Zombies. First Contact is a rather dull remake of Night of the Living Dead, except the house is the Enterprise, and we get to see a ten-second, anticlimactic space battle that's been tacked onto the front end.

 

[Thor Damar]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Star...

Turk?!?


Just messin. No, they got alot of face time for sure,
but I found the Romulans far more interesting.

Oops my bad on the spelling!

Scrubs does Star Trek, good idea or not?
As for the Romulans I will be discussing them Anon

 

[Thor Damar]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I agree that the Borg got screwed over by bad writing. That never happened to the Cardassians--and I think the fact that they were set up as so multifaceted from the very beginning meant that viewers were less likely to infer the actions of one Cardassian onto another. It was a lot harder to destroy them.

Yeah, but the Dominion sure tried, the Bastards. I guess the writers through that near Genocide would be poetic justice for the Occupation of Bajor.

As to the Borg, after BOBW the Borg lost their appeal to me they became to easy to defeat and in the end became a running joke. Space Vampires! Stargate did a much better job of it with the Wraith.
The Borg should have only appeared in 2-3 eps max and been established as a vague unknown threat.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I agree that the Borg got screwed over by bad writing. That never happened to the Cardassians--and I think the fact that they were set up as so multifaceted from the very beginning meant that viewers were less likely to infer the actions of one Cardassian onto another. It was a lot harder to destroy them.

Yeah, but the Dominion sure tried, the Bastards. I guess the writers through that near Genocide would be poetic justice for the Occupation of Bajor.

Well...remember that the Dominion HAD demonstrated its genocidal tendencies before. Had Bashir not intervened, the Teplans would've been wiped out slowly by the Blight. And I'm afraid my memory isn't really doing so well on this question, but I think the Dominion had killed other races as well--and threatened to do so to Cardassia before Dukat's alliance. Dukat was arrogant...incredibly arrogant...to think he could keep that in check! If it's anybody's fault, it was Dukat's.

Maybe there was a poetic justice element...but to me, it was most importantly a comment on the consequences of Dukat's supreme arrogance.

 

[Thor Damar]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I agree that the Borg got screwed over by bad writing. That never happened to the Cardassians--and I think the fact that they were set up as so multifaceted from the very beginning meant that viewers were less likely to infer the actions of one Cardassian onto another. It was a lot harder to destroy them.

Yeah, but the Dominion sure tried, the Bastards. I guess the writers through that near Genocide would be poetic justice for the Occupation of Bajor.

Well...remember that the Dominion HAD demonstrated its genocidal tendencies before. Had Bashir not intervened, the Teplans would've been wiped out slowly by the Blight. And I'm afraid my memory isn't really doing so well on this question, but I think the Dominion had killed other races as well--and threatened to do so to Cardassia before Dukat's alliance. Dukat was arrogant...incredibly arrogant...to think he could keep that in check! If it's anybody's fault, it was Dukat's.

Maybe there was a poetic justice element...but to me, it was most importantly a comment on the consequences of Dukat's supreme arrogance.

Agreed on the above, Dukat's arrogance got the better of him. And he seriously thought the desperate times call for desperate measures yet the Feds had extended an open hand to the new Civilian government on Cardassia, but Dukat needed that Statute .

As to those mass murdering bastards called the Dominion, I recall Weyoun stating to Dukat that they would need to kill everyone on Earth to stop rebellion and that the Dominion would have killed every man,women and child on Bajor during the Resistance.
So the Dominion likes to resort to Genocide on a regular basis, that's why we all rooted for the Cardassians!

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Yeah, but the Dominion sure tried, the Bastards. I guess the writers through that near Genocide would be poetic justice for the Occupation of Bajor.

Well...remember that the Dominion HAD demonstrated its genocidal tendencies before. Had Bashir not intervened, the Teplans would've been wiped out slowly by the Blight. And I'm afraid my memory isn't really doing so well on this question, but I think the Dominion had killed other races as well--and threatened to do so to Cardassia before Dukat's alliance. Dukat was arrogant...incredibly arrogant...to think he could keep that in check! If it's anybody's fault, it was Dukat's.

Maybe there was a poetic justice element...but to me, it was most importantly a comment on the consequences of Dukat's supreme arrogance.

Agreed on the above, Dukat's arrogance got the better of him. And he obveriously thought the desperate times call for desperate measures yet the Feds had exetended an open hand to the new Civilian government on Cardassia, but Dukat needed that Statute .

But did the Federation REALLY back the Cardassians against the Klingon invasion? Were they really ready to put it all on the line to keep their former so-called "allies" from going after Cardassia? I don't think so--to me it seems like they decided they needed their little alliance more than they were willing to stand up for a democratic government in need. It was all about expediency as far as the Federation was concerned...or so it seems, anyway--they just don't admit it.

(This, of course, still does not excuse Dukat, not in the slightest. But it does make me think that he wouldn't have had as much of an opening to get away with what he did, had the circumstances been different.)

And I look forward to the continuation of your essay!

 

[xanderwess]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Sure, the cardies are pretty good (really like dukat and demar) but the Vidiians are the ones that make my skin crawl. Messed up. Yuck. Harvesting parts for crissakes? Jeez, makes me wanna run and hide under my bed!

 

[Thor Damar]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Well...remember that the Dominion HAD demonstrated its genocidal tendencies before. Had Bashir not intervened, the Teplans would've been wiped out slowly by the Blight. And I'm afraid my memory isn't really doing so well on this question, but I think the Dominion had killed other races as well--and threatened to do so to Cardassia before Dukat's alliance. Dukat was arrogant...incredibly arrogant...to think he could keep that in check! If it's anybody's fault, it was Dukat's.

Maybe there was a poetic justice element...but to me, it was most importantly a comment on the consequences of Dukat's supreme arrogance.

Agreed on the above, Dukat's arrogance got the better of him. And he obveriously thought the desperate times call for desperate measures yet the Feds had exetended an open hand to the new Civilian government on Cardassia, but Dukat needed that Statute .

But did the Federation REALLY back the Cardassians against the Klingon invasion? Were they really ready to put it all on the line to keep their former so-called "allies" from going after Cardassia? I don't think so--to me it seems like they decided they needed their little alliance more than they were willing to stand up for a democratic government in need. It was all about expediency as far as the Federation was concerned...or so it seems, anyway--they just don't admit it.

(This, of course, still does not excuse Dukat, not in the slightest. But it does make me think that he wouldn't have had as much of an opening to get away with what he did, had the circumstances been different.)

And I look forward to the continuation of your essay!

Once more you have hit the nail on it's head! I think that I was being to kind the the UFP but there was always another way for Cardassia... if I just knew what that was I'd be a happy little Cardie! I will address this more when I actually get round to the Cardassian Union and Dukat's Role.

Part 2 will be up soon I'm just working out how to do justice to the great Romluan people!

 

[captcalhoun]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

if you wanna good look at Klingon society, read Klingon Empire: A Burning House. meet Klingon farmers, Klingon opera stars, Klingon politicians as well as the continuing adventures of the crew of IKS Gorkon, stars of the eponymous 3-book series that KE replaces. (KE:ABH can be read seperately, but your appreciation will be enhanced by reading the GKN trilogy)

 

[plynch]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Amen to Thor Damar! Klingons are simply stupid. "You have offended me. I fight you." They'd never get anywhere that way, always infighting. Cardassians were the closest to having a fascist vibe, too, which is a cool feel, even the way they stand.

Garak is my favorite Trek character ever, and I'd even nominate pre-Pagh Dukat as one of my top-3. When he gets into self-justifying mode, not only does he believe it, but if some of what he says is true, he actually did do some good, spare some Bajorans, while occupying them. Kira is unable to consider that. He is simply "bad" to her; this sets up one of the "good guys" (Kira) actually being morally blindered (a bit), though of course she had her reasons.

Post-ers have all commented on villain races. What about Vulcans?

 

[Thor Damar]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Amen to Thor Damar! Klingons are simply stupid. "You have offended me. I fight you." They'd never get anywhere that way, always infighting. Cardassians were the closest to having a fascist vibe, too, which is a cool feel, even the way they stand.

Garak is my favorite Trek character ever, and I'd even nominate pre-Pagh Dukat as one of my top-3. When he gets into self-justifying mode, not only does he believe it, but if some of what he says is true, he actually did do some good, spare some Bajorans, while occupying them. Kira is unable to consider that. He is simply "bad" to her; this sets up one of the "good guys" (Kira) actually being morally blindered (a bit), though of course she had her reasons.

Post-ers have all commented on villain races. What about Vulcans?

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "Fascist vibe" aspect of the Cardassians, I never though it was cool and it seems to be a common failing in Star Trek to have an entire race represent an existing ideology. Let alone for the rather obvious reason that Fascism is deeply unappealing (to say the least).
Dukat did over see the occupation of Bajor which saw the deaths of Millions of Bajorians so any "reforms" that he undertook could not forgive his crimes as the perfect of Bajor.

As for the Vulcans I do not find them very interesting at all. Now, as for their sundered cousins...

 

[Thor Damar]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Due to problems logging in and my own massive incompetence, my post on the Romulan Star Empire has been destroyed! I will try to post another version at a later date and hopefully In will get it right this time.

 

[Gotham Central]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I think that what made the Cardassians interesting was that unlike either the Romulans or the Klingons, the Cardassians actually had a real history. Even before DS9 we learned that Cardassia had something of a tragic past. People starved on Cardassia. It was the militarization of their society that "saved" them. They are are a people with a big ego yet have a huge inferiority complex. Joining the Dominion was perfectly rational from their point of view. For several years they attempted a rapproachment with the Federation and tried to reform their society. What did they get for their efforts....an invasion by the Klingons. Even though the Federation saved the civilian government (or rather Sisko did without getting permission from Starfleet) and suspended their treaty with the Klingons, they ultimately did nothing to help repell the unwaranted Klingon agression. The Dominion came to their aid in their hour of need (even though the Dominion instigated the whole thing). To then have the Dominion start treating them like a subject race was a humiliation too far.

What's equally interesting about the Cardassians is that they are the ONLY Alpha Quadrant Emprie in which we are shown one of their subject races. Bajor and the occupation have been a big reason why the Cardassians seem much more complex. We've NEVER seen one of the Klingon or Romulan conquered worlds (and we know that they must exist since the Federation is constantly finding inhabited worlds in its own space (plus we saw the Klingons attempt to woo worlds into their camp back in TOS). How much more interesting might the Klingons be if we saw them through the eyes of other races that were incorporated into the Empire.

 

[Nerys Ghemor]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "Fascist vibe" aspect of the Cardassians, I never though it was cool and it seems to be a common failing in Star Trek to have an entire race represent an existing ideology. Let alone for the rather obvious reason that Fascism is deeply unappealing (to say the least).

Though to their credit, the Cardassians themselves showed a lot more variety and disagreement with said philosophy than any other race. Other than K'ehlyr, for instance, did we ever see a Klingon who thought the whole honor shtick was stupid?

And at least in THEIR case, the monoculture thing made sense--I mean, that was one HELL of an oppressive government they had, more than anything else we ever saw. (Someday, Thor, when you get PM privileges, I should tell you why it is the guys all style their hair alike...at least in my own version of events.) But in a lot of the other cases...it makes none at all.

What's equally interesting about the Cardassians is that they are the ONLY Alpha Quadrant Emprie in which we are shown one of their subject races. Bajor and the occupation have been a big reason why the Cardassians seem much more complex. We've NEVER seen one of the Klingon or Romulan conquered worlds (and we know that they must exist since the Federation is constantly finding inhabited worlds in its own space (plus we saw the Klingons attempt to woo worlds into their camp back in TOS). How much more interesting might the Klingons be if we saw them through the eyes of other races that were incorporated into the Empire.

Why didn't they do that? Because if they went there, then people might actually start questioning the Klingon-Federation alliance! (And well they should have, if you ask me!)

 

[plynch]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "Fascist vibe" aspect of the Cardassians, I never though it was cool and it seems to be a common failing in Star Trek to have an entire race represent an existing ideology. Let alone for the rather obvious reason that Fascism is deeply unappealing (to say the least).
Dukat did over see the occupation of Bajor which saw the deaths of Millions of Bajorians so any "reforms" that he undertook could not forgive his crimes as the perfect of Bajor.

As for the Vulcans I do not find them very interesting at all. Now, as for their sundered cousins...

Wait - the Cardies are bad but the ROMULANS are ok? As to the Fascist vibe, it's cool to have that element in the show, rather than just being TOLD Race X is bad, to see a race actually paralleling Earth regimes (militarism, secret police): that's a nice touch! And I don't think I said Dukat's reforms or sheltering of some Bajorans "forgave" what he did. It's just that if he's telling the truth when he self-justifies, he actually might have done some good things, compared to what he was ordered to do. I just like that moral ambiguity, which other people have commented on, rather than just "Race-X is bad."

 

[Thor Damar]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

I'm going to have to disagree with you on the "Fascist vibe" aspect of the Cardassians, I never though it was cool and it seems to be a common failing in Star Trek to have an entire race represent an existing ideology. Let alone for the rather obvious reason that Fascism is deeply unappealing (to say the least).
Dukat did over see the occupation of Bajor which saw the deaths of Millions of Bajorians so any "reforms" that he undertook could not forgive his crimes as the perfect of Bajor.

As for the Vulcans I do not find them very interesting at all. Now, as for their sundered cousins...

Wait - the Cardies are bad but the ROMULANS are ok? As to the Fascist vibe, it's cool to have that element in the show, rather than just being TOLD Race X is bad, to see a race actually paralleling Earth regimes (militarism, secret police): that's a nice touch! And I don't think I said Dukat's reforms or sheltering of some Bajorans "forgave" what he did. It's just that if he's telling the truth when he self-justifies, he actually might have done some good things, compared to what he was ordered to do. I just like that moral ambiguity, which other people have commented on, rather than just "Race-X is bad."

Yeah, I agree with what you have said but I think that having an entire culture represent one particular Human ideology isn't very healthy, I mean look at the Ferengi. Fortunately the Cardassians have outgrown this aspect of their characterization.

I have never argued that the Cardassians are bad, in fact they are one of my favorite fictional races precisely because of their moral ambiguities. And with Dukat I was trying to avoid any accusations of a pro-Dukat bias in my writings which has lead to me misreading your post, for which I apologise. As DS9 fans I think we can all agree that Dukat's capticy for Self delusion is legendary. (The actor who portrayed Dukat seriously thought that Dukat was the real hero of Deep Space Nine)

 

[Thor Damar]

Re: Are the Cardassians the most interesting Race in the Star Terk Gal

Also on the subject of the various subject races of the Empires, there has been one other subject race shown onscreen, The Remans.
Several Klingon subject races have been mentioned in Trek Lit but not elaborated upon, alas!