• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Are Star Trek I and Star Trek V essentially irrelevant?

TMP has its flaws but come on, there were some exceptional moments too, the tour around the refitted Enterprise, the visuals, the music.. TMP is the best SF movie of them all..

Yeah, I just watched it this morning and I think it still holds up marvelously. Most of its visual effects still look fantastic even by today's standards, the designs are fantastic, and I even think the story and character arcs hold up relatively well if you watch the movie often enough to catch the nuances. I had thought for a while that the Kirk/Decker arc sort of fizzled out once Spock arrived, but I noticed a lot of little beats and looks traded between Kirk and Decker that showed how their relationship was evolving and they were learning to trust each other. It was there, it was just very subtextual.

And Spock's epiphany... "I should've known." That is an immensely powerful and moving moment. And it's arguably the most important moment in Spock's entire life. It's the foundation of everything that follows for Spock, of the way Nimoy has played Spock ever since. More, it's a key moment between Kirk and Spock, because it's "this simple feeling" -- Spock's friendship for Kirk -- that he acknowledges as the thing that gives life meaning for him. It's a great scene for these two characters. I can't understand why anyone would want to skip it.
 
TMP has its flaws but come on, there were some exceptional moments too, the tour around the refitted Enterprise, the visuals, the music.. TMP is the best SF movie of them all..

Yeah, I just watched it this morning and I think it still holds up marvelously. Most of its visual effects still look fantastic even by today's standards, the designs are fantastic, and I even think the story and character arcs hold up relatively well if you watch the movie often enough to catch the nuances. I had thought for a while that the Kirk/Decker arc sort of fizzled out once Spock arrived, but I noticed a lot of little beats and looks traded between Kirk and Decker that showed how their relationship was evolving and they were learning to trust each other. It was there, it was just very subtextual.

And Spock's epiphany... "I should've known." That is an immensely powerful and moving moment. And it's arguably the most important moment in Spock's entire life. It's the foundation of everything that follows for Spock, of the way Nimoy has played Spock ever since. More, it's a key moment between Kirk and Spock, because it's "this simple feeling" -- Spock's friendship for Kirk -- that he acknowledges as the thing that gives life meaning for him. It's a great scene for these two characters. I can't understand why anyone would want to skip it.

Spock's epiphany also is referred back to in V when he tells Sybok about him not being the outcast child and that he has found himself and his place.
 
^And in TUC when he tells Valeris that logic is the beginning of wisdom, not the end. And in ST 2009 when he tells his younger self to put aside logic and do what feels right.
 
And in ST 2009 when he tells his younger self to put aside logic and do what feels right.

He doesn’t state that as general advice. He states only that NuSpock should do what feels right “in this case.”

Presumably, Spock Prime feels he knows NuSpock well enough to know which decision that would be, knows that it’s the right decision, and figured this advice is more certain to get NuSpock to the right decision than NuSpock attempting to decide logically based on the facts and experience available to him at the time. In a situation like this, advice from your time traveling future self can be a better guide than your own, necessarily limited, logical analysis of the situation.

Considering the source of the advice, it’s logical to take it. Although the decision-making process involves emotional introspection, NuSpock (assuming he takes Spock Prime’s advice) does not act illogically in using that emotional approach to the decision.

As for his advice to Valeris, I’m not entirely sure what it means.
 
Star Trek 2, 3, 4 and 6 seemed to have running themes and an ongoing story, which Star Trek 1 and 5 don't really fit into. It seems like you skip those two films because don't really fit with the other 4 films. So are Star Trek 1 and 5 essentially irrelevant?

No of course not, that pre-supposes all stories have to be serialized and that is certainly not the case. STV is irrelevant because its a delusional script by Shatner.

RAMA
 
And in ST 2009 when he tells his younger self to put aside logic and do what feels right.

He doesn’t state that as general advice. He states only that NuSpock should do what feels right “in this case.”

I don't see how that's relevant. Either way, it grows out of the same worldview, the same mature understanding that emotion can have value rather than being something that has to be fought against tooth and nail. Naturally he said "in this case" because he had to ease his younger self into that understanding rather than trying to push the whole radical new worldview on him all at once.


Considering the source of the advice, it’s logical to take it. Although the decision-making process involves emotional introspection, NuSpock (assuming he takes Spock Prime’s advice) does not act illogically in using that emotional approach to the decision.

Yes, exactly! Spock's TMP epiphany had nothing to do with giving up logic -- simply with giving up his denial of emotion, with coming to understand that logic and emotion can coexist. That it is possible to lead a logical life that includes emotion, that it is logical to accept and use emotion and illogical to pretend you don't have it. That is something Spock did not understand in TOS, but it shapes his behavior in everything after TMP.
 
Christopher, I just want to say that agree with everything that you have had to say in regards to how the events in TMP shaped Spock from that time forward, and the way Nimoy played him. So I will add my voice to those up thread. TMP was VERY relevant.


And in ST 2009 when he tells his younger self to put aside logic and do what feels right.

He doesn’t state that as general advice. He states only that NuSpock should do what feels right “in this case.”

I don't see how that's relevant. Either way, it grows out of the same worldview, the same mature understanding that emotion can have value rather than being something that has to be fought against tooth and nail. Naturally he said "in this case" because he had to ease his younger self into that understanding rather than trying to push the whole radical new worldview on him all at once.


Considering the source of the advice, it’s logical to take it. Although the decision-making process involves emotional introspection, NuSpock (assuming he takes Spock Prime’s advice) does not act illogically in using that emotional approach to the decision.

Yes, exactly! Spock's TMP epiphany had nothing to do with giving up logic -- simply with giving up his denial of emotion, with coming to understand that logic and emotion can coexist. That it is possible to lead a logical life that includes emotion, that it is logical to accept and use emotion and illogical to pretend you don't have it. That is something Spock did not understand in TOS, but it shapes his behavior in everything after TMP.

I watched ST 09 for the first time in while the other day. After the rewatch, and following this thread, it has left me with a thing or two that makes me go, 'hmm'. Christopher has has very accurately and extensively laid out Spockprime's evolution from TOS through ST 09. Was nuSpock's breakdown and following conversation with nuSarek in the transporter room nuSpock's 'V'ger' moment, maybe with Spockprime's advise cementing it? The reason I ask this is because to me, it seemed that from that point forward nuSpock began to act a bit more like post TMP Spock than TOS Spock.
 
^Yes, I felt the same thing -- that ST '09 had the young Spock sort of rushing through the same journey that his original self went through more incrementally, because events shaped him differently. And it's arguably the second film that's done that, since the recovering Spock in The Voyage Home pretty much had to relearn who he was over the course of the film, and pretty quickly recovered that same balance between logic and emotion. (Which doesn't negate the importance of TMP, because TMP shaped how Nimoy perceived and played the character thenceforth -- indeed, Nimoy wrote a lot of the Spock dialogue in the later portions of the film, especially the more philosophical stuff -- and of course as the director of TVH he was responsible for shaping Spock's characterization there, and he decided he wanted Spock to return to the same place he'd been.)
 
^

All very true. It will be interesting to see where JJ & Co take things. I know Nimoy has stated that he's not up for doing the next one, and no one knows if nuSarek will even be in it, but it would be interesting to see the interaction between nuSarek and Spockprime. Actually, it would be interesting to see what direction nuSpock & nuSarek's relationship might head. Early in ST '09 it was very much the same as it was in the prime universe. However, the conversation in the transporter room came off as more of a traditional father/son moment. Will the loss of Vulcan, and especially Amanda take nuSarek down a much different path? I guess we'll have to wait and see. And if not, I'm sure there are a few good writers out there that might expand on it. ;)
 
...coming to understand that logic and emotion can coexist. ... That is something Spock did not understand in TOS...

But at least once Spock did "logically" yield to an emotion in just this way during TOS, as I noted earlier - in "Requiem for Methuselah," the last of the four Jerome Bixby scripts. When he sees the treasures in Flint's home - the works of Leonardo, et al. - Spock reacts with astonishment (to the point of agreeing to have a brandy!), even though he then says that the unaccustomed emotion he's "close to experiencing" is envy (which isn't too convincing because he immediately explains that he's discovered that modern materials were used).

There is also the case of Spock "logically" choosing a desperate action in "The Galileo Seven," although given his speech on the ship afterward, that may not be in the same category.

Spock's holding-hands-with-Jim turning point in TMP, the apparent focus of the present discussion, has little impact for me because of course "this simple feeling is beyond V'ger's comprehension." We can all see that for ourselves, so Spock's epiphany is meaningful only to himself (at least at the moment).
 
But at least once Spock did "logically" yield to an emotion in just this way during TOS, as I noted earlier - in "Requiem for Methuselah," the last of the four Jerome Bixby scripts. When he sees the treasures in Flint's home - the works of Leonardo, et al. - Spock reacts with astonishment (to the point of agreeing to have a brandy!), even though he then says that the unaccustomed emotion he's "close to experiencing" is envy (which isn't too convincing because he immediately explains that he's discovered that modern materials were used).

^The difference is, those moments were exceptions to Spock's normal pattern, which was to resist and suppress his so-called "human half" (a ridiculous characterization, since of course the whole reason Vulcans embraced logic is because their own innate emotions are so intense). He still strove for a self-image as a totally logical being and frequently criticized or dismissed other characters' emotional reactions (for instance, look how contemptuous he is toward Scotty's "feeling" about the condition of the ship in "That Which Survives"). He admitted his emotions when he had to, but treated them as a problem to be overcome or a source of shame (see "Plato's Stepchildren," for example, where he admits to feeling hatred toward Parmen, but does so only with reluctance.) That's very, very different from the movie-era Spock who's completely comfortable in his own skin, not struggling with his emotions at all or judging others for theirs.

And let's face it, Spock was often out of character in the third season, since the show was in the hands of writers who didn't understand the characters as well as their predecessors. His ridiculous mooning over Droxine in "The Cloud Minders" is an example. And as much as I love "Requiem for Methuselah" for its gorgeous, poetic writing, the fact is that its portrayal of Spock is a bit off-kilter. There's a difference between unintentionally changing the way a character is written because you don't fully understand him and purposefully having the character undergo a transformative experience.


Spock's holding-hands-with-Jim turning point in TMP, the apparent focus of the present discussion, has little impact for me because of course "this simple feeling is beyond V'ger's comprehension." We can all see that for ourselves, so Spock's epiphany is meaningful only to himself (at least at the moment).

Uhhh... what???????? That's pretty obviously the whole point here -- what it meant to Spock. How it redefined his view of himself, what he believed, how he chose to relate to his emotional side. The epiphany wasn't about what V'Ger could comprehend. The epiphany was that Spock had been wrong to fight against his emotional side, because emotion is what gives life its meaning. V'Ger was simply the illustration of that. It represented the ideal Spock had been pursuing -- pure logic with nothing else in the way -- and when he melded with V'Ger and experienced that firsthand, he recognized how completely barren and empty it was. From that point on, he understood that emotion wasn't something to be fought against, wasn't a character flaw to be embarrassed by and try to purge, but something to be embraced and accepted as an integral part of himself, as something with value to himself and others.

And I can tell you firsthand that such a realization is very meaningful. I lost my mother when I was seven, and for a few years I dealt with the grief by trying to emulate Spock, to bury my emotions. Which turned out very badly because it just left me without a release valve for the tensions that built up until they exploded. When TMP came out four years later, Spock's epiphany helped me to make much the same breakthrough he did, to accept that I needed my emotions and was only hurting myself by trying to suppress them. So what Spock went through in TMP is very relevant to me, because it positively affected me in real life.
 
You didn't touch a nerve; I was just using my personal experience to offer additional perspective on how the epiphany could be personally meaningful and transformative for Spock.
 
Nimoy later claimed that Roddenberry didn't want him back on a regular basis for Phase II and that he was never even asked if he would come back as a regular.

Nimoy made it it known in his first autobiography, "I Am Not Spock", that he had no interest in returning full time to the character. I think even GR would agree that that he wasn't expecting Nimoy to ever want to come back as a regular. After all the work developing Xon, having Spock return as regular would eliminate the need for Xon, exactly what came to pass in TMP.

IIRC, in the mid 70s, Nimoy and Roddenberry were having a feud about several issues. Nimoy was also petitioning Paramount to stop the Nimoy/Spock likeness being used in commercials - for which he received no approvals or remuneration (eg. Heineken® Beer). GR claimed to be helpless to assist, and yet he was receiving his own royalties from ST. The writers' guide for "Phase II" was completed on the assumption that Spock was off-limits and that Kirk was possibly only available as a regular for the first 13 hours of stories, but that guest appearances from both might be possible.
 
Of course they're not "irrelevant."

Almost no TOS episode "led into another," after all. In that sense the first and fifth movies are more true to the original Star Trek than the others.

If something entertains you, it matters to you. It's that "relevant." If it doesn't, then it's not.

It is that simple.
 
TMP has its flaws but come on, there were some exceptional moments too, the tour around the refitted Enterprise, the visuals, the music.. TMP is the best SF movie of them all..

ST-5 I don't care about its damn flaws! its the best character momen t movie of them all!


Row row row your boat.. :cool:

Nope they're very much not irrelevant, a little different, mwah maybe, so what?


You mean the worst character moments ever in Trek
 
I can assure the OP that I will be rewatching TMP in the future. I'll probably also rewatch parts of TFF. Movies can't be irrelevant in the large if people still watch or refer to them.
 
I can assure the OP that I will be rewatching TMP in the future. I'll probably also rewatch parts of TFF. Movies can't be irrelevant in the large if people still watch or refer to them.

I'm watching the 143 minute version as we speak (the version that aired on ABC back in 1983), and I can say honestly that it's not even remotely irrelevant. Same goes for V.

Are they the two lesser films of the movie series? In my opinion, yes, but they are no more or less irrelevant than any other episode or movie. In fact, both have things that I like AND dislike in them.
 
I have grown to appreciate ST:TMP, and I adore ST:TFF, so for me, they're not irrelevant at all. In fact, for me, ST:TFF speaks to me on a greater level than any of the other TOS films, much as I love them.

Amen to that! I feel the exact same way about The Final Frontier. I'm about to watch it actually as part of a Summer of 89 marathon on Blu Ray I've been doing with my fiance.

TMP is classic and amazing in it's own way. The fact that it is so unlike the other films is what makes it my favorite. Star Trek by way of 2001, with no Star Wars-esque Villain but a giant space mystery for the crew to solve.

There are great moments in both of these films, and they should never be irrelevant in the eyes of anyone who truly loves Star Trek & it's characters. They may not be for everybody, but that's why there's The Voyage Home.
 
They're not irrelevant in any way. They are part of the history of Trek, and their contributions are valid.

I gave up on bashing TMP years ago. I think the direction and special effects are great, and the redesign of the Enterprise is beautiful, but from a story perspective I think it's slow and too self-important. I also swear there is something wrong with the audio, everyone sounds kind of muffled. I understand why people love it, it's just not my cup of tea.

TFF has a good concept in man's search for God, but it fails in it's execution with a weak story, and poor direction. I blame Shatner. Actually, I blame Shatner's ego. TFF did give us my favorite bridge design though.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top