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Are holograms the slave class of the Federation?

DarthTom

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From what we know of holographic technology, the Federation folks pretty much treat them like dirt. In TNG, the one and only sentient hologram was put into a computer program to wanter the artificial galaxy after being tricked into going into it.

In DS9 they are essentially sexual slaves and play toys in Quarks.

And in DS9 the Dr.'s program is allowed to mature within parameters but eventually we learn they retire his program to 'scrub warp conduits' and even he is denied rights.

So, are the Federation folks slave owners of holograms? Is this morally right?
 
Most holograms are non-sentient. the only ones we've really seen are the EMHs, Vic Fontaine and Moriaty.

the EMHs are certainly treated as a slave class, but the sheer stupidity of the sub-plot in 'Author Author' about using holograms as miners leads me to ignore it.

yeah, Moriaty was conned, but Vic's teated well.
 
captcalhoun said:

yeah, Moriaty was conned, but Vic's teated well.

Vic was only treated well after Nog left his program running. Up until that point he was forced to sing upon command and even complained about it to Nog.

And it should be remembered that Nog while in the military is still a Ferengi and the Ferengi aren't member of the UFP.
 
Wasn't there a voyager book that dealt word for word exactly this question?

I think the book is called homecoming or something like that?
 
Yes they are. That's a good point brought up in the OP.

There is also an episode of Voyager about a psycho hologram who points out how disgusting human bodies are, points out how humans took advantage of him, and tries to kill Belanna until she kills him first.

But after reading this thread it dawned on me that yeah, since he's part of the slave class, he had some good reasons to turn psycho, didn't he?
 
DarthTom said:
From what we know of holographic technology, the Federation folks pretty much treat them like dirt. In TNG, the one and only sentient hologram was put into a computer program to wanter the artificial galaxy after being tricked into going into it.

In DS9 they are essentially sexual slaves and play toys in Quarks.

And in DS9 the Dr.'s program is allowed to mature within parameters but eventually we learn they retire his program to 'scrub warp conduits' and even he is denied rights.

So, are the Federation folks slave owners of holograms? Is this morally right?

Well, it's important to keep in mind that most holograms are not sentient programs, anymore than your computer is.

However, it does indeed appear that the EMH programs developed sentience -- and that the Federation was using them as a slave labour class as of 2377, the year VOY's last season was set in. However, "Endgame" seems to imply that eventually, the "abolitionists" win and get people to end such practices.
 
This subject was brought up in the VOY novels "Homecoming" and "The Farther Shore", but alas, it wasn't handled very well...
 
Turtletrekker said:
This subject was brought up in the VOY novels "Homecoming" and "The Farther Shore", but alas, it wasn't handled very well...

And as we all know, say it with me folks:

"Novels aren't..."

;)
 
Trekker4747 said:
Turtletrekker said:
This subject was brought up in the VOY novels "Homecoming" and "The Farther Shore", but alas, it wasn't handled very well...

And as we all know, say it with me folks:

"Novels aren't..."

Yeah, but so what? It's not like the canon is gonna touch on this issue any time soon.

And I would note that the two books mentioned above only start an arc that later books must resolve.
 
I don't think non-sentient holograms are slaves anymore than the characters in a current-gen or next-gen video game. They are programed to do a specific thing, and that is what they do. On the other hand, if you are talking about sentient holograms, I think the three we saw were fairly well treated once the issue of their sentience was brought up. It just took awhile for it to be brought up when it came to The Doctor and Vic is all.

Oh and as for the novels not being canon, that's really not an issue until we get something dealing with holograms after Voyager. At this rate it's probably the only closure we're going to get, so we might as well just go with it.
 
Trekker4747 said:
Turtletrekker said:
This subject was brought up in the VOY novels "Homecoming" and "The Farther Shore", but alas, it wasn't handled very well...

And as we all know, say it with me folks:

"Novels aren't..."

;)
"Canon" is an entirely useless, meaningless and irrelevant concept when dealing with a fictional universe. The books are as real to me (in some cases moreso) than the shows and movies and I don't give a flying fuck about such a meaningless issue as "canon".

Fiction is fiction and I feel sorry for people who think otherwise, because they are missing out on some really good stuff for no relevant reason.
 
Turtletrekker said:
This subject was brought up in the VOY novels "Homecoming" and "The Farther Shore", but alas, it wasn't handled very well...
For once, most people in TrekLit would agree with this...
 
Thing is, how can one tell if a holgram is sentient? This question is tackled in Clarke's novel of 2001: ultimately, we take each other's word on anyone's sentience beyond our own and even that we can't define. If Vic, Moriarty and the Doctor can all achieve sentience by accident, who's to say Quark's Ferengi fellating floozies haven't also achieved it? As early as "The Big Good Bye," we saw holdeck charcters questioning the very nature of their reality and existence. Is that sentience or just a very complex computer mimicry of it? And if so, how is it that the computer itselff is not sentient? It pretty much aces the Turing test by proxy, and that's while running all the other functions of the ship, including warp physics. I know there are supposedly protocols built in to keep that from happening but really, now... :confused:

Anyway, the discarded EMHs mining dilithium seemed pretty sentient to me--and miserable. (I gotta give VOY credit for making its "Measure of a Man" episode about copyright law.) And Andy Dick's EMH was sentient enough to want to get laid.
 
Am I missing something? Are holograms other than Voyager's doctor able to exist outside of special environments, with projectors, etc.?

The Voyager stories relating to this were great. But in the real world, we already enjoy characters who come alive via photons. We call it TV. Are they our slaves as well?
 
DarthTom said:
From what we know of holographic technology, the Federation folks pretty much treat them like dirt. In TNG, the one and only sentient hologram was put into a computer program to wanter the artificial galaxy after being tricked into going into it.

That's because Moriarty was originally created as a villain, and had a tendency to still do villainous things after he gained sentience to attain his ends. Plus, as Picard pointed out, they still hadn't found a way to allow holograms to exist in the normal world four years after he was given sentience.

I tend to draw a distinction between sentient holograms and artificial life forms like Data. Data's classification is based not only on his sentience, but also the fact that he is alive in many respects. A hologram is not, it is simply a collection of energy. It doesn't help matters that the technology hasn't been used consistently; in TNG it was always suggested that the holograms had some matter, whereas in VOY they were said simply to be energy projections.
 
Certainly some sentient phenomena in the Trek universe seem to be treated in inhuman ways. But for example the Moriarty case raises the issue of value judgement: for some of these alien intellects, being treated humanely might be a fate worse than slavery or death.

Moriarty was a born and bred villain; would he have found satisfaction if denied the treatment that villains deserve? At the very least, treating him humanely would be like forcibly raising a promising child to be a chess master or a marathon runner against his or her wishes and dreams. At worst, it would be akin to making a slave pull a plow because his limbs and back make him suited for it, even when they have other, more natural uses.

Starship computers might well be sapient, sentient and rather prissy - but they seem perfectly satisfied with their lot. Even at worst, their life seems analogous to that of a house servant, but probably is no different from the jobs of Kirk or Worf or O'Brien. If kicked out of their jobs and set free, they might feel like a patient doomed to a life in an iron lung.

Really, the Judeo-Christian mythos and work ethic on which Trek, too, is based would have us believe that life is hell and a better fate awaits after death. But some of these artificial intellects may already be in their form of heaven. If these lifeforms are superior to humans in basically every way measurable (lifespan, intellect, memory, imagination, perception of environment etc), giving them human rights would mean hacking off their limbs, gouging out their eyes, nailing the torso to a dirty board and saying "now you must be really happy because you enjoy the same freedoms we do".

Did the EMH Mk Is feel unhappy doing forced labor? Probably, since they were specifically programmed to mimic human reactions. But they could enjoy lives superior to human ones while mining - they could write and perform a thousand operas with each swing of the phase-pick, or have wonderful sex between themselves with each dilithium shard knocked off the bedrock. And they could be programmed (or self-programmed) to really, really enjoy mining.

And that's with the most humanlike of these alien intellects. To impose human values on the rest of that bunch goes way beyond telling a Vulcan to lighten up and knock down a few beers on the pain of death.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Maybe I'm holophobic, but I never considered any hologram to be sentient. Can a holographic program mimick sentience? Sure, but so can my relatively archatic 21st century computer. Some episodes (especially in VOY) kept trying to make a point about holographic sentience, but I never bought into it. If I were on Voyager, I would've reset that EMH program the minute it started going haywire.
 
Sci said:
Well, it's important to keep in mind that most holograms are not sentient programs, anymore than your computer is.

We treat dogs better today than they treat holograms. And dogs aren't sentient beings. By the 24th century they didn't learn from past mistakes? :wtf:
 
Turtletrekker said:
"Canon" is an entirely useless, meaningless and irrelevant concept when dealing with a fictional universe. The books are as real to me (in some cases moreso) than the shows and movies and I don't give a flying fuck about such a meaningless issue as "canon".

Fiction is fiction and I feel sorry for people who think otherwise, because they are missing out on some really good stuff for no relevant reason.

While I tend to agree with you and some ST fans get just a little too obsessive compulsive about trying to get all of the pieces of 'canon' to fit together - nonetheless, good fiction should be at least consistent within its on universe. And my angst sometimes with Trek is it is not consistent.
 
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