Approaching holidays...are we thinking the same thing?

[Robert Maxwell]

Yeah, for real. Let's not pretend the Defense of Marriage Act--which is still in force, and still denies many benefits to gay public employees and their spouses--has to do with anything but enforcing Christian norms on people.

Uh, what part of “persecution of non-Christians” do you not understand? There are plenty of gay Christians. And why specifically “Christian norms”? Every religion has traditionally regarded marriage as a man-woman thing.

I was speaking of persecuting people because they practice a religion other than that professed by the majority. I haven’t seen any calls for an American Inquisition lately — at least, not by anyone with actual political power.

lolwut

Most Christian denominations resoundingly reject gays.

And how can you not see that persecuting someone for not practicing your religion is essentially the same as persecuting people for practicing a different religion? Or, for that matter, persecuting someone because they do things your religion frowns upon. It's all the same: Christians forcing their beliefs on others.

 

[scotpens]

Most Christian denominations resoundingly reject gays.

According to one survey, 70 percent of American homosexuals identify themselves as Christian, 60 percent describe their faith as “very important” in their lives, and 40 percent say say they are “absolutely committed” to the Christian faith.

Not surprisingly, the survey says heterosexuals are twice as likely as homosexuals to strongly agree that the Bible is “totally accurate” in all of the principles it teaches.

There are also a lot of Catholics who practice birth control and Jews who eat pork.

 

[sidious618]

It doesn't change his point: most denominations denounce homosexuals.

 

[IndyJones]

Most Christian denominations resoundingly reject gays.

According to one survey, 70 percent of American homosexuals identify themselves as Christian, 60 percent describe their faith as “very important” in their lives, and 40 percent say say they are “absolutely committed” to the Christian faith.

Statistics of how many gays consider themselves Christian are irrelevant. Most were raised in Christian households, so it's not surprising that some of that stuff stuck. But that has nothing to do with how most of those denominations look upon gays, or on how Christian legislators have used their faith to justify descrimination against gays.

There are also a lot of Catholics who practice birth control and Jews who eat pork.

And yet 10 years ago using birth control and eating pork were legal, but gays could be arrested for having consensual adult sex in the privacy of their own home. And a year ago, a woman on birth control and a man buying condoms wouldn't be drummed out of the military, but a guy suspected of being gay could be.

What point is it that you're trying to make here?


I don't want to sound like I'm whining, I've had a pretty easy life. But in a country where guys where arrested 10 years ago for having consensual sex, where guys can lose their job or be denied housing because they're gay, where kids are killing themselves because of the torment they receive from often Christian bullys, well...What scotpens is saying is just crazy.

 

[Sean Aaron]

Forgive the wayback machine, but I've just decided to catch-up after my recent holiday.

I just am trying to explain that it can be easier to feel secure or comfortable in others expressions of their culture when you are yourself in the majority.

I absolutely agree. I think it's nice when Christians deign to sing Hanukah songs to give a feeling of inclusion, but there's no way I'd ever sing any Christmas song with a whiff of religion about it. I may not be the most religious Jew in the world, but making even a symbolic nod to the divinity of Jesus isn't a bridge I'm going to cross in the "spirit of the season" and I'd hope Christians would respect that.

But what you sarcastically dismiss as expecting immigrants to “get with the program” is called assimilation, and it’s a good thing. It’s how immigrant groups from the early 19th century on have become part of America, and it’s what makes this country more than just a fragmented collection of separate national and ethnic identities.

And it results in the diminishing of the culture of the immigrants. I don't believe in ghettoising other people, but I fully endorse immigrant groups creating their own enclaves if they desire including the preservation of their language and customs. In short I disagree with your statement that assimilation is a "good thing."

Oh, puh-LEEZE. I’ve never once felt “overwhelmed or offended” by the dominant Christian religion (is there even such a thing as “Christian culture”?) in the U.S.

Well, good for you. I personally have found it occasionally oppressive and at no time more than Christmas when it is indeed often "shoved down your throat." Thankfully in the UK I've found less of the "spirit of the season" in the office than the UK so declining to go to office functions and the like isn't that big a deal; nor do people tend to decorate. It does help that I've mellowed a lot, but I can see how people would take offence.

Having said that i would like to re-iterate my support for Warped9 seeking to negotiate with his employer about decorating the office, but I'm not that big a fan of the idea that not being able to amounts to oppression or somehow caving in the face of offended immigrants or whatever.

With population migrations it's quite possible that Christmas may fade in time - indeed its status as a major holiday is historically recent in Scotland and the rest of the UK and mainly a result of American cultural influence. I personally wouldn't get too bent out of shape about it.

 

[Kestra]

I would hope so, yes.

I know a lot of Canadians of different origin and nationality and I don't have a problem with any of them. I'm simply saying that if those Canadians are allowed to express their celebrations in their own way then I and others likeminded should as well

Oh, is corporate allowing decorations for other celebrations and not Christmas?

I was really hoping for an answer to this.

 

[Brian]

Another example of what's happening today in the U.S. military...

Here at the Military Religious Freedom Foundation (MRFF), we get a constant stream of emails from service members telling us about chaplains who just can’t seem to uphold the oath they took to the Constitution, and see their position as a chaplain as a vehicle to fight secularism in what is supposed to be — ummm — a secular military.

Earlier this week, we heard from an Air Force Academy professor and active duty officer who had attended a new faculty orientation at which the Academy’s head chaplain, Colonel Robert Bruno, informed over a hundred new faculty members that there is no wall of separation between church and state.

Here’s what the faculty member wrote:

I saw the recent MRFF release about the USAF Academy (USAFA) Chaplain’s office publicizing books for evangelical Christian authors and, frankly, I’m not surprised. After all, what can you expect from an organization headed by a callous, unprofessional and uneducated individual who doesn’t even understand the Constitution his organization defends? During new faculty orientation this summer, this same Chaplain (USAF Academy Head Chaplain, Col. Robert Bruno) stood up in front of over a hundred new USAFA faculty and told them that ‘there is no wall’ between church and state! Maybe for him there isn’t, but for the rest of us, it’s a pretty clear concept. He then railed against the ‘increased secularization’ that has eroded morality in our society and proceeded to deliver a 15-minute ‘homily’ on why USAFA has only the ‘perception’ of religious intolerance, despite documented instances of proselytization and even ‘HR decisions influenced by faith affiliation!’ Seriously! If this is the individual that the leadership is relying on for counseling in religious toleration matters, no wonder the institution has completely lost the bubble!

But was that the worst display of a U.S. military chaplain flagrantly deriding the Constitution that they swore an oath (presumably to God) to protect and defend? Hell no!

We got in one today that may just take the prize. This one came from the U.S. Army’s 1st Recruiting Brigade. At last count, forty-one Army recruiters — thirty-four of them Christians — have contacted MRFF, stunned and appalled by a “Thought For The Day” email sent out by Major Wayne Keast, the 1st Recruiting Brigade’s chaplain.

This is the email from the chaplain, sent out this morning to all Army recruiters up and down the eastern seaboard.

I was reading an article yesterday about those being trained as officers in the service academies. Those who chose not to go to religious services when they were held were encountered by cadre and put on detail. They were seen as being punished for not going to chapel. Now there is the Atheist and Freethinker groups that are holding their separate meetings. We have equated agnostic, atheistic and other ideas to stand alongside Christendom as a viable belief system. We have freedom to believe or not believe presently in our country. What I wonder is how will this affect our future officer leadership and where will we go in our ethic? Christianity has been the ground and foundation for our Ethical Core Value system ever since George Washington. The further we move away from Christianity in our ethic and practice the greater the problems will get within the infrastructure of our military, (If you haven’t noticed). We are removing the foundation for all behavior for all other belief system are based on relativism and nothing objective and unmovable. We are in a constant flux in our values. We will soon remove all GOOD reason for having a workable ethic.”


MAJ Wayne Keast
United States Army 1st Recruiting Brigade Chaplain
WAYNE.KEAST@usarec.army.mil
(301) 677-2943

http://blogs.alternet.org/speakeasy...afa-and-army-1st-recruiting-brigade-chaplain/

 

[Brian]

Another example:

http://www.opednews.com/articles/1/The-Camp-Pendleton-Cross--by-Chris-Rodda-111201-635.html