Anyone else underwhelmed by 'Chain of Command'.

[TheLobes]

Im mostly talking about part 2, I quite liked part 1, but it doesnt escape completely. I finally got around to watching it last night, and I was excited because its supposed to be one of the best episodes, but I just didnt feel it.

For a start I didnt really understand Jellico. Was his role in the story to make the Enterprise crew look like whiney, unprofessional children? If so, mission accomplished. Ive seen his name sometimes in these forums, and people seem to hate the guy, but I didnt really see any reason. He was right, they were taking the Enterprise into a potentially hostile situation and as the captain of that ship he had to know exactly how to handle it. Riker overstepped his authority numerous times, and Picard was kind of insensitive when he was trying to give him advice on how to handle the crew. Also, why the hell did Troi look so hard done by when he told her to put on a uniform? Im not saying I agreed with the way he did things all the time, but the crew have to respect that he is the captain.

My main concern, though, was the interaction between Picard and the Cardassian interrogator. I like how in the DS9 episode 'duet, and other trek shows, its clear theyre taking inspiration from the holocaust, but it isnt slammed right in your face. In Chain of Command its so obvious they are making a parallel with Germany that they might as well come right out and say it. I think they pushed it so hard I gave up caring about the Cardassian situation, because it had nothing unique about it. It was like that episode of Voyager where Neelix meets some guy who used this horrible weapon on his home world that killed lots of people and made everyone else sick, but it ended the war and maybe saved more lives than it took. It became so clearly an analogy of the A-Bomb that it actually started to detract from the characters and the inworld story.

Then there was the whole four lights thing, and the torture device which the Cardy used on Picard before telling him that that was the lowest setting. I mean, theres a difference between an homage to 1984 and just plain stealing from it. Then the standard TV psychology of 'you're still just that scared little child'.

Anyone else feel like this?

 

[RAMA]

Im mostly talking about part 2, I quite liked part 1, but it doesnt escape completely. I finally got around to watching it last night, and I was excited because its supposed to be one of the best episodes, but I just didnt feel it.

For a start I didnt really understand Jellico. Was his role in the story to make the Enterprise crew look like whiney, unprofessional children? If so, mission accomplished. Ive seen his name sometimes in these forums, and people seem to hate the guy, but I didnt really see any reason. He was right, they were taking the Enterprise into a potentially hostile situation and as the captain of that ship he had to know exactly how to handle it. Riker overstepped his authority numerous times, and Picard was kind of insensitive when he was trying to give him advice on how to handle the crew. Also, why the hell did Troi look so hard done by when he told her to put on a uniform? Im not saying I agreed with the way he did things all the time, but the crew have to respect that he is the captain.

My main concern, though, was the interaction between Picard and the Cardassian interrogator. I like how in the DS9 episode 'duet, and other trek shows, its clear theyre taking inspiration from the holocaust, but it isnt slammed right in your face. In Chain of Command its so obvious they are making a parallel with Germany that they might as well come right out and say it. I think they pushed it so hard I gave up caring about the Cardassian situation, because it had nothing unique about it. It was like that episode of Voyager where Neelix meets some guy who used this horrible weapon on his home world that killed lots of people and made everyone else sick, but it ended the war and maybe saved more lives than it took. It became so clearly an analogy of the A-Bomb that it actually started to detract from the characters and the inworld story.

Then there was the whole four lights thing, and the torture device which the Cardy used on Picard before telling him that that was the lowest setting. I mean, theres a difference between an homage to 1984 and just plain stealing from it. Then the standard TV psychology of 'you're still just that scared little child'.

Anyone else feel like this?

Nope..I JUST watched this last week and thought it held up really well. I rarely watch this episode because Jellico annoys me so much. He just reminds me of a petty, 20th century closed minded military view as opposed to the enlightened crew of a 24th century starship. My wife watched it with me from beginning to end for the first time ever and she was suitably impressed. Shame on the Academy for not nominating Stewart with an Emmy.

The standard psychology is often right on the mark..lots of people who don't get therapy for traumas in their childhood often don't recover till they deal with it...childhood means innocence and lack of control, and people can overcompensate if they do nothing about it. I can think of the results of this on opposite sides of the spectrum in at least 2 people I know.

RAMA

 

[TheLobes]

The standard psychology is often right on the mark..lots of people who don't get therapy for traumas in their childhood often don't recover till they deal with it...childhood means innocence and lack of control, and people can overcompensate if they do nothing about it. I can think of the results of this on opposite sides of the spectrum in at least 2 people I know.

I know its 'right on the mark', but it doesnt stop the fact that Ive seen it trotted out a thousand times on TV and in films.

Like I said, I didnt always agree with what Jellico did, but I think his reasons were pretty sound. I was more annoyed by the crews annoyance and him for asking them to do their jobs.

 

[RAMA]

The standard psychology is often right on the mark..lots of people who don't get therapy for traumas in their childhood often don't recover till they deal with it...childhood means innocence and lack of control, and people can overcompensate if they do nothing about it. I can think of the results of this on opposite sides of the spectrum in at least 2 people I know.

I know its 'right on the mark', but it doesnt stop the fact that Ive seen it trotted out a thousand times on TV and in films.

Like I said, I didnt always agree with what Jellico did, but I think his reasons were pretty sound. I was more annoyed by the crews annoyance and him for asking them to do their jobs.

So this is like saying you've seen them fire guns in thousands of shows...and you're tired of it...but that's not going to stop them making shows where they fire guns.

I think the crew gave him credible examples why his methods were difficult..I recall where Geordi was telling Riker the practical explanation why Jellico's engineering requests were unreasonable. Also Starfleet isn't as fastidiously military as the 20th century navy. Its an exploration arm of the Federation, with secondary military function. Yes if there is a mission Jellico should expect the crew to react accordingly, but his methods grated on the crew, and crew morale is a totally valid element of military planning, jeopardize this and it could have been a long road ahead. Add to all of this the WAY command was transferred in such a rush, I think some trepidation amongst the crew when a proven commander is removed is also understandable.


RAMA

 

[thepatagonian]

Most bullies ARE damaged. And they have egos as thin as eggshells. I know this from working both alongside of soldiers, athletes, addicts, and other "bad boys." I'm not saying they're squishy on the inside either, though sometimes they are. Sometimes whats inside are just emotions without labels.

Now that's not necessarily a bad trait. We all grow up because of opposition, be it abusive childhood or victimizing combat situation, we all form that hard crust. Opposition is the hard crust on the bread of life.

Jellico? Helluva a commander. He'd have a ship ready for anything. The crew of the Cairo wouldn't be culpable of gross negligence like in Generations, resulting in the loss of the ship, I'm sure of that. Usually tho, the second in command is the one with the whip. In this case, it seems clear that Jellico has skills that worked very well for him in the past and is suffering a intersocial issue. He needs to get in touch with the community and have a love in. Which he does, by talking to Troi.

Annoying? Yes, a new boss is always something to get used to. Did Riker and the rest really show how enlightened they are by helping Jellico out? No. They really are all whiney SOBs.

 

[sonak]

I'm always amused by these threads on Jellico in this forum where they say that he's right and the crew's a bunch of whiners.


Let me ask: Would the people saying this want an arrogant, stubborn jerk like him who is totally unresponsive to his employees as a boss?

No? Then you're hypocrites for saying that others should have meekly gone along with him.

It is not a sign of leadership to not take into account the views and feelings of those serving under you. Being rigid and unrealistic with your expectations does not make you "tough," it just makes you a bad boss.

Jellico was an effective and tough negotiator who got the job done, but I agree with Riker's analysis of him.

And no, I don't think this two-parter is underrated. It is one of the more dark and mature episode(S) TNG ever did.

 

[TheLobes]

So this is like saying you've seen them fire guns in thousands of shows...and you're tired of it...but that's not going to stop them making shows where they fire guns.

I think the crew gave him credible examples why his methods were difficult..I recall where Geordi was telling Riker the practical explanation why Jellico's engineering requests were unreasonable. Also Starfleet isn't as fastidiously military as the 20th century navy. Its an exploration arm of the Federation, with secondary military function. Yes if there is a mission Jellico should expect the crew to react accordingly, but his methods grated on the crew, and crew morale is a totally valid element of military planning, jeopardize this and it could have been a long road ahead. Add to all of this the WAY command was transferred in such a rush, I think some trepidation amongst the crew when a proven commander is removed is also understandable.
RAMA

What? Thats nothing like saying Im sick of seeing guns being fired! Its a big part of the story, and an even bigger part of that character, to have it so by the book in its execution annoyed me, I felt the character was something out of 'Psychology for Dummies': Bully, made to feel helpless as a child, now takes it out on others. Snore.

Yes, Starfleet is not the same as he 20th century navy, but theres a reason why they carry phaser banks and photon torpedos. When you join Starfleet you have to accept that you might be called upon to perform in a military role. This isnt the navy, but it aint greenpeace either. Youve also got to respect the chain of command, thats part of joining Starfleet too. I mean come on, Riker disobeys the first order Jellico gives him. If I were Jellico Id be pretty annoyed about that, you cant have your go to guy disobeying orders, and then not even telling you about it. What if it had come out around the crew that Riker hadnt changed the rotations, instead of in front of Picard? Hows it going to help matters to see that your first officer doesnt agree with the new captain? Jellico would have had to either admit he was wrong, or admonish Riker, and both of those things would have been detrimental to his new command. Pretty unprofessional of Riker.

Youve also got to take into account the situation, Jellico said he didnt have time to baby the crew, and he didnt. The crew, on the other hand, knew that they were in a tense situation, and they still started screwing around. Not really the time, maybe?

And what did the crew want? Did they think Jellico would suddenly change his ways and declare he was going to be exactly like Picard now? Did they think that if they bitched about it enough Starfleet would send them a new captain?

 

[TheLobes]

Let me ask: Would the people saying this want an arrogant, stubborn jerk like him who is totally unresponsive to his employees as a boss? .

Ive had bosses like that. However, the reason they were the boss was because they knew a lot more than me, and they had risen to that position due to their skills. I might prefer a boss like Picard, but I wouldnt start trying to tell him when I was going to have lunch, or call him away to inform him hes treating a customer wrong, Id just do my job. I actually work harder for these people, because I know they'll respect that hard work.

A jerk of a boss who knows his stuff, or an unprofessional employee who thinks he knows better. Which is worse?

 

[Saquist]

I personally liked the two parter...
I found Jellico a JERK
I found Riker an even bigger JERK
I found the crew soft....

 

[TheLobes]

I found Jellico a JERK
I found Riker an even bigger JERK
I found the crew soft....

Haha, that pretty much covers it.

 

[sonak]

Let me ask: Would the people saying this want an arrogant, stubborn jerk like him who is totally unresponsive to his employees as a boss? .

Ive had bosses like that. However, the reason they were the boss was because they knew a lot more than me, and they had risen to that position due to their skills. I might prefer a boss like Picard, but I wouldnt start trying to tell him when I was going to have lunch, or call him away to inform him hes treating a customer wrong, Id just do my job. I actually work harder for these people, because I know they'll respect that hard work.

A jerk of a boss who knows his stuff, or an unprofessional employee who thinks he knows better. Which is worse?

Well that is one way to look at it, but I don't think your generalization that bosses get to be bosses because they're more skilled or have more expertise(paraphrasing) than a subordinate or employee is necessarily true.

It could be just seniority but they're still incompetent, it could be nepotism, other connections they had, etc. And I don't think ANY authority position is above constructive criticism.

I'll say again that Jellico does come across as competent, but he's a horrible leader.

 

[DGCatAniSiri]

Jellico wanted the ship to make the jump from peaceful exploration to military combat ready practically from the moment he took command. The crew attempted to bring their complaints to him, and he brushes them off. Even Picard suggests that he slow it down a little, find out how it'd been done on the ship before, and Jellico's response is 'This is my ship now.'

My sticking point with Jellico is the scene in Engineering. Geordi objects to the time frame he demands. Data says it is attainable, and Geordi says it would if no one sleeps for two days. Jellico says get on it and walks out. To me, that shows disrespect for the man in charge of the section who is thinking of the well-being of his people and it shows disrespect to those people because he wants them to work to the bone and then potentially go into battle at the same time. Jellico also transfers half of the engineering staff over to security. They may share uniform colors, but they're not the same department.

In a combat situation, it is far more dangerous to have someone untested and untrained manning a vital department than it is to have these people working in less essential areas.

Then there's the four shift rotation. Jellico wants the four shift rotation. The crew chiefs tell Riker that it would cause major problems and Riker delays the creation of the fourth shift until he can bring it to Jellico's attention. Jellico instantly demands the fourth shift with 'no excuses.' No explanations either.

To me, Jellico is a micro-manager, so focused on keeping everything about the ship itself running shipshape that he forgets about the crew. Their well-being, to him, is the responsibility of the first officer, and if he's being bothered by these things, then the first officer isn't doing his job. But the captain needs to be mindful of the attitude of his crew.

Jellico, in my eyes, has a command style best suited for a smaller ship that is focused mainly on combat and defense, like border patrol, rather than the Enterprise's multi-purpose mission

I'm not giving Riker a pass, because he does make it a point of pride to get Jellico to ask he take on the mission, but he IS doing his job of trying to keep the ship and crew running smoothly. Jellico just doesn't listen and doesn't trust his judgment. And when Riker says that it is his responsibility to point out what may be mistakes on the captain's part he is relieved of duty. It's just his demand that Jellico ask him to do the mission that grates. I even give a pass on the 'there's no joy' line - you should be able to wake up every day and enjoy what you do, and the overall impression of the Enterprise under Jellico's command is that it is an unpleasant work environment that pays no attention to you.

 

[T'Girl]

I'll say again that Jellico does come across as competent, but he's a horrible leader.

Look at the command styles of Kirk and Sisko, the way they ran the Enterprise and the Defiant during military events and combat maneuvers. In those situations both men treated their ships and crews as military units. This is certainly how Sisko later treated the large Starfleet battle fleet under his command.

Now compare those two men against Jellico.

Kirk's style was to attack or to maneuver his opponents into an inferior position, then (and only then) offer them options ... like surrender or retreat. Which is what Jellico did in the nebula with the Cardassians.

Jellico's style is exactly like Sisko's too, Jellico ran his ship Sisko's way, if he had wanted suggestions, he would have asked for them, but the final decisions were the Captain's.

Jellico isn't a horrible leader, in Starfleet, his style was typical and effective.

 

[Avon]

i was underwhelmed by the cave sets

 

[sonak]

I'll say again that Jellico does come across as competent, but he's a horrible leader.

Look at the command styles of Kirk and Sisko, the way they ran the Enterprise and the Defiant during military events and combat maneuvers. In those situations both men treated their ships and crews as military units. This is certainly how Sisko later treated the large Starfleet battle fleet under his command.

Now compare those two men against Jellico.

Kirk's style was to attack or to maneuver his opponents into an inferior position, then (and only then) offer them options ... like surrender or retreat. Which is what Jellico did in the nebula with the Cardassians.

Jellico's style is exactly like Sisko's too, Jellico ran his ship Sisko's way, if he had wanted suggestions, he would have asked for them, but the final decisions were the Captain's.

Jellico isn't a horrible leader, in Starfleet, his style was typical and effective.

This is a misconception of military leadership. "Treating a ship like a military unit" DOES NOT mean "make it clear to your subordinates that you don't give a crap about their opinions or views, despite the fact that they're professionals with valuable input." Further, a ship's captain should be very concerned with crew morale.


Yes in a chain of command on a ship the decision is ultimately
the captain's, but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be taking into account the views of those below him. While it's not "command by consensus," it's not "rigid dictatorship" either, there's middle ground.

As the poster a few sports up mentioned about the scene with Geordi, effective leaders LISTEN to what their employees/subordinates tell them, especially if they're warning them about something that may be unreasonable or impractical, etc.



And I don't see a lot of similarities between Jellico and Sisko. Sisko may have been a serious, no-nonsense captain in his style, but he was almost always shown to care and respect the views and input of his subordinate officers.

 

[USS Excelsior]

[yt]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0EJtpTTO7A[/yt]

 

[indolover]

- Riker was a baby
- Jellico was a jerk, but COs must have different command styles, just as in the civilian workforce, managers have different management/leadership styles. As a seasoned Starfleet officer, Riker must have known this.
- Sir Patrick Stewart's acting in the torture scenes was superb.

 

[Saquist]

You people are sick....come on....

 

[RAMA]

Let me ask: Would the people saying this want an arrogant, stubborn jerk like him who is totally unresponsive to his employees as a boss? .

Ive had bosses like that. However, the reason they were the boss was because they knew a lot more than me, and they had risen to that position due to their skills. I might prefer a boss like Picard, but I wouldnt start trying to tell him when I was going to have lunch, or call him away to inform him hes treating a customer wrong, Id just do my job. I actually work harder for these people, because I know they'll respect that hard work.

A jerk of a boss who knows his stuff, or an unprofessional employee who thinks he knows better. Which is worse?

Unfortunately there are a lot of "bosses" that don't don't get their positions through merit in the real world. Jellico doesn't seem to be one of these, but what is the point that unilateral decision making becomes counterproductive to the good of the objective?

RAMA

 

[Starbreaker]

Ugh... the mere mention of Jellico makes my blood boil.