Anyone Else Like Justice?

[AdmiralScreed]

I recently posted this in another thread:

"Justice really isn't that bad of an episode. In fact, I kind of like it actually. The Edo are an interesting race and society because they live in what appears to be perfect harmony with nature and with each other. The irony is that in order to maintain such a perfect paradise it takes capital punishment for even the slightest offenses.
As for the "moral dilemma" of Justice, I think it's kind of absurd. Picard shouldn't have even had to consider whether or not it was right or wrong to save Wesley. Wesley is a member of his crew, and Wesley's "crime" was a complete accident. No one was harmed in any way.
Despite my qualms with Justice, I think it's a fairly solid episode. The premise is interesting, and it has some really good and funny moments.
Out of 10 stars I'd probably give it a 5, so about average. I'm looking forward to rewatching it when TNG comes to blu ray later this year."

I constantly hear people complain about how terrible Justice is. It's consistently ranked among the worst episodes of TNG. Obviously, I disagree with the consensus. So, what do you all think of Justice?

 

[DonIago]

I think it sets a dangerous precedent to say that we should have the right to disregard any laws we regard as "stupid", even if we can claim that "nobody was hurt".

Of course, the fact that they never even bothered to ask such an open society what the structure of their legal system was before allowing civilians to beam onto the planet makes the Enterprise command crew look rather like morons.

Wes, of course, is the ultimate moron for his claim that Starfleet doesn't lie. I wonder whether anyone was supposd to believe that.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Of course, the fact that they never even bothered to ask such an open society what the structure of their legal system was before allowing civilians to beam onto the planet makes the Enterprise command crew look rather like morons.

This was one of the major problems with the episode.

I think it sets a dangerous precedent to say that we should have the right to disregard any laws we regard as "stupid", even if we can claim that "nobody was hurt".

TOS episodes were regularly based on the premise that strictly following Starfleet regulations could produce the wrong results, and/or that locals could be primitive, misguided savages, so there was hardly anything revolutionary in the message of the episode, when compared with other Star Trek that had come before. This episode might beat out TOS: The Apple, but it hardly stacks up against A Private Little War. As first season TNG episodes go, it's actually about average! Ugh!

Besides, I don't think the rationale for disregarding the local laws was, "we're going to ignore this law just because no one was hurt." Just the opposite, really. It was that following the law would have done more harm than good, ergo the law must be ignored.

Wes, of course, is the ultimate moron for his claim that Starfleet doesn't lie. I wonder whether anyone was supposd to believe that.

As hokey as the dialog sounded, I think it was actually well-meaning. The problem was that it was a symptom of TNG first season preachiness, which thankfully the show was able to move past.

 

[AdmiralScreed]

Wes, of course, is the ultimate moron for his claim that Starfleet doesn't lie. I wonder whether anyone was supposd to believe that.

As hokey as the dialog sounded, I think it was actually well-meaning. The problem was that it was a symptom of TNG first season preachiness, which thankfully the show was able to move past.

Call me crazy, but I liked the way Starfleet was portrayed as the ultimate moral authority in the early episodes of TNG. TNG created a future where human beings had evolved to new heights, where everyday people had respect and compassion for everyone and everything around them. I loved the optimism.

For those reasons I have no issues with Wesley saying that Starfleet does not lie. Obviously in later Trek, particularly in DS9, we realized that what Wesley said was false, but in the context of TNG he was telling the truth. During the first season of TNG humans were the most moral beings in the galaxy.

 

[DonIago]

I wonder whether, if Picard had said the line, it would have sounded more believable, or just more naive.

As it is, we've got a teenager who's never served in Starfleet claiming that said organization never lies. Even if I was enough of an optimist to believe that...and I'm optimistic enough to -hope- it would be true...I can't possibly accept it. Given the type of organization that Starfleet is, there are going to be times where being flexible with the truth comes into play.
And, of course, the fact that it's Wes of all people saying it, just weakens the case in my eyes. It's somewhat akin to a 5 year old claiming Santa's real. It's a charming display, and some might like to believe it, but...really...it's pretty unlikely.

I agree that regulations and laws should be flexible, and I don't support the idea of executing Wes given the particular circumstances we witness, but I also don't believe it is or should be Starfleet's job to decide what alien customs are or aren't worthy of being observed, any more than humans would like it if an extraterrestrial culture came to Earth and started telling us what they think of how we're running our planet. IMO, Picard et al. have every right to make a case for preserving Wes's life under the circumstances, but if the alien culture decides to execute him anyway, it's not appropriate for them to then defy the culture's decision.

I should note that I haven't seen the episode in quite awhile, and I most certainly don't quite recall the resolution. Wes gets killed, right? Did Our Heroes at least acknowledge that they were partly responsible for the situation because they should have read up on the legal system they were going to be operating under?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

lol.

Actually, the higher power in charge of that sector of space itself lets Wes off the hook after an impassioned (TM) speech from Picard. So the Feds didn't exactly pull a Kirk on the primitives.

And yeah, I agree about the tone/delivery/context/etc. of Wes's line being like, "Santa is real." Good call, there.

 

[DonIago]

It would have been pretty ballsy if God had decided The Boy Must Die and Picard and Co. ran off with him. Especially if there had been some reflection amongst the crew that they should be more careful about their interactions with alien cultures in the future.

...Suddenly this sounds like something that would have been more appropriate for Enterprise.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yeah, grittier, and something completely at odds with the tone of TNG's first season. I'm not a fan of grit for grit's sake, but that suggestion would have improved the episode IMO.

 

[RAMA]

I like the philosophical questions asked, and the last 10 minutes or so, the execution in general wasn't particularly good though. Could have been much better.

 

[Timo]

Of course, the fact that they never even bothered to ask such an open society what the structure of their legal system was before allowing civilians to beam onto the planet makes the Enterprise command crew look rather like morons.

Umm, Tasha Yar makes it clear that she did check out the local laws, and that there was nothing out of the ordinary there.

It's just too bad that she wasn't able to check out the punishments to go with the laws! Since there was only one, it probably wasn't written down anywhere.

I guess the Edo had a fairly conventional set of laws that they were powerless to enforce until they introduced the extreme measure of slapping a death penalty for everything - something they could enforce with an automated monitoring system and just a handful of policemen. This worked - crime went away - but the system stayed in place because by local opinion it did no harm.

The only odd thing is that the Edo are comfortable with visitors from outer space, yet do not warn them of this practice at arrival. One'd assume each and every one of their visitors would get at least a couple of death penalties imposed on them!

Timo Saloniemi

 

[CorporalCaptain]

The only odd thing is that the Edo are comfortable with visitors from outer space, yet do not warn them of this practice at arrival.

I assumed that this was because, in their naïveté, they didn't realize that it was anything to be concerned about.

Clearly, Tasha didn't do her homework, and so had to die....

 

[Timo]

Would naïvete stand the test of waves of tourist groups?

The natives e.g. assume Riker would be out of breath at physical exercise - which makes no sense unless they have prior experience in humanoid tourism...

On the other hand, the Edo God seems rather unfamiliar with the idea of interstellar colonization, something that probably would eventually be discussed with most of the folks wandering into the star system. And the locals certainly remain ignorant of many things one'd expect would become familiar to them through the stories of the tourists.

On the issue of Picard not immediately "extraditing" Wesley and leaving, it doesn't appear as if his hands are tied or anything. Rather, by "volunteering" to have justice run its course, ostensibly because the PD requires it, Picard appears to be making a stand and preparing to wage war against the local justice system, in classic Kirk fashion. He then retreats to his ship to consider his strategy, like a lawyer preparing for a ruthless attack. Too bad that God steps in and forces Picard to adopt a begging strategy in his quest to reform the inhumane local justice system - a victorious strategy in the end.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

the ending and speech is good, but yeah, the "dilemma" is absurd, and the whole "we have a line about Tasha checking out local laws, but it's important for the plot that she's incompetent at doing so" kind of ruins it.

 

[DonIago]

Heh, if Tasha really was supposed to have checked out the local laws and accidentally missed a little thing like capital punishment for trivial crimes, I think she's at least as worthy of a formal reprimand as Worf was after he accidentally beamed over to Duras's ship and accidentally killed the bastard.

 

[Timo]

I dunno. There isn't a "capital punishment for trivial crimes" - there is capital punishment for all crime! Odds are, then, that punishment is not mentioned in connection with the offenses listed. And the shore leave parties would only need to know what is punishable, not how it is punishable: Picard isn't going to send down people who are prepared to commit minor crimes...

I don't see any good reason for Yar to study local law an sich; she should only be tasked with finding out what is allowed and what is not. So it all depends on how she obtained this information. Did the locals send a welcome packet with instructions on how to behave? Or did Yar ask specific questions? If the latter, it's difficult to imagine her not asking "Okay, and how long a jail term will this one carry?", just out of professional interest - but if the former, I can't really blame her for incompetence. That'd be like blaming Crusher for not telling that the locals always dress in green for dinner (and will thus take umbrage with Picard's uniform) while all he asks her to do is scan local foods for compatibility.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

I liked the episode on balance, yeah. But it had a lot of shortcomings.

 

[Kirkman1987]

As I stated in the other thread, I like this one. I prefer it to quite a few season 1 eps. I understand the hate, but the cheese is part of what I like about Star Trek, so it doesn't bother me. The message is a good one, and as dumb as the outfits are, it creeped the hell out of me the first time I saw this episode and that guy just coldly walked up to wesley with that needle. creepy...

I believe Wesley's line is meant to be taken at face value. Season 1 did represent Gene Roddenberry at the height of his creative control.

 

[Timo]

Regarding the message... At first, "Justice" seemed to represent a cool and interesting break from storytelling traditions, Trek or otherwise. Usually, the heroes make their moral decisions from a vulnerable position of weakness, because it's exciting to see the heroes in danger. But here Picard is clearly in charge - he has a mighty starship and its advanced weapons and transporters against the nothing of the local primitives - and it looks like we can watch him make a moral decision from that unusual position. It's convention-breaking, cool and interesting the same way the Jedi duo in SW1 overpowered an entire army!

...And then the episode completely screws it up and has God overpower our heroes.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[sonak]

I dunno. There isn't a "capital punishment for trivial crimes" - there is capital punishment for all crime! Odds are, then, that punishment is not mentioned in connection with the offenses listed. And the shore leave parties would only need to know what is punishable, not how it is punishable: Picard isn't going to send down people who are prepared to commit minor crimes...

I don't see any good reason for Yar to study local law an sich; she should only be tasked with finding out what is allowed and what is not. So it all depends on how she obtained this information. Did the locals send a welcome packet with instructions on how to behave? Or did Yar ask specific questions? If the latter, it's difficult to imagine her not asking "Okay, and how long a jail term will this one carry?", just out of professional interest - but if the former, I can't really blame her for incompetence. That'd be like blaming Crusher for not telling that the locals always dress in green for dinner (and will thus take umbrage with Picard's uniform) while all he asks her to do is scan local foods for compatibility.

Timo Saloniemi

Oh come on. Look how much is known about some of the more repressive countries in the world today and their punishments. You're telling me that with 24th century research tools Tasha couldn't have dug this up about their ONE punishment in ten minutes flat?


Either the Edo hide this info, which makes the "dilemma" even easier to dispense with, or Tasha is so incompetent that she should be busted down to ensign and be removed from her security chief position.

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

The "God ship" was one of the best things about this episode.