anyone else bored/frustrated by all the "Mary Sue" debates?

[CommanderRaytas]

ok help me out here what is the SINISTER AGENDA

Exactly! This whole "agenda" argument just annoys me so much. If someone's gender were the point of the character, i.e. someone's femaleness were meant to show up someone's maleness, then fine. But this is just about competent women doing stuff that usually men do in these roles - no more, no less. That's it. I'd like to see the lovely folks talking about "the agenda" (how very nefarious) complain about Captain White McCisHetero being the proactive protagonist who's not just our POV character, but also actually shows competence and skills. Why is "woman in lead role" an "agenda" but "man in lead role" is not? I'd like them to criticise the male heteronormative "agenda", too.

If women or people of colour in lead roles offend or annoy you or whatever, then you need to re-examine what is normal to you and why a deviation from the norm bothers you just for existing. Because it's almost never part of the story. It just is.

Hint: this "agenda" BS all nonsense and does not at all hold up to scrutiny.

/rant

 

[Redfern]

C'mon. Everyone knows that Lucy was not nearly as cool as Hannah Solo . . ..

Nah, Chewbooty is where it's at!

(Yes, I am very aware Chewy has often been the target of "rule 63", both with and without the "rule 34" factor. So, nothing new there.)

 

[Greg Cox]

Nah, Chewbooty is where it's at!

(Yes, I am very aware Chewy has often been the target of "rule 63", both with and without the "rule 34" factor. So, nothing new there.)

But I gotta say, Prince Lee was pretty scrappy for a guy.

 

[F. King Daniel]

I don't mind fanwanky premises or even author self-inserts. Michael Burnham comes across like a fangirl putting herself into the heart of the Trek mythos, but I domn't mind. She's flawed and makes mistakes, which makes her more appealing to watch than the always right all the time tedium of Riddick (to cite a totally random example)

 

[CommanderRaytas]

But I gotta say, Prince Lee was pretty scrappy for a guy.

Especially in those golden speedos.

 

[tomalak301]

I don't know what Mary Sue means, really. I mean I watched the Star Wars movies, and I didn't see Ray as a Mary Sue character. I saw her as resourceful, considering she was a trader, but that part never bothered me. As for Burnham, I think my issue with her is it feels like she's at the center of everything. I'm not sure there is any storyline in Discovery, either last year or this year, that didn't include Burnham. It feels like the only way for other characters to grow is through her. I get shes the star of the series, but she might as well be the captain because that's what it feels like. I think it would have been a great idea to have a series from a point of view of someone who wasn't the captain (Even though I would argue the 90s series were more ensemble and everyone was vital or semi-vital. I don't know if this makes Burnham a Mary Sue or not, but I wish things were spread around better.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't mind fanwanky premises or even author self-inserts. Michael Burnham comes across like a fangirl putting herself into the heart of the Trek mythos, but I domn't mind. She's flawed and makes mistakes, which makes her more appealing to watch than the always right all the time tedium of Riddick (to cite a totally random example)

I like both Riddick and Michael...

Riddick is flawed and interesting in a different way. I hate the fact that their gender must define why one is more favorably looked upon that the other.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

I love The Chronicles of Riddick precisely because he's the awesomest to ever awesome. It's silly and over-the-top and plain awesome.

 

[Crazyewok]

Mostly around Michael Burnham, as well as in the SW forum about Rey.

Also, yes, I'm tired of it. "Mary Sue" is not a catch all term for character not liked.

They still have debates on the starwars site? Last time I was there the mod where banning any and all critisms of Rey and the films.......

Least this site you can have debates.

 

[fireproof78]

I love The Chronicles of Riddick precisely because he's the awesomest to ever awesome. It's silly and over-the-top and plain awesome.

I like Riddick because he is a deeply flawed individual. He's also very capable.

They still have debates on the starwars site? Last time I was there the mod where banning any and all critisms of Rey and the films.......

Least this site you can have debates.

What site are you talking about? I see the Mary Sue debate around Rey rage pretty much at every Star Wars forum, reddit and the comment section. Including here.

 

[CommanderRaytas]

Riddick is flawed, yes. That's one of the reasons he's so awesome. I'm with you on that one.

 

[fireproof78]

Riddick is flawed, yes. That's one of the reasons he's so awesome. I'm with you on that one.

 

[Crazyewok]

I like Riddick because he is a deeply flawed individual. He's also very capable.

What site are you talking about? I see the Mary Sue debate around Rey rage pretty much at every Star Wars forum, reddit and the comment section. Including here.

The forcenet.

I got banned for my critisms of Disney, the last jedi and EA games.
And no I was not spewing any sort of hatred at cast or crew.
My posts where basically the same as here.

That sites just modded by easily triggered snowflakes with control issues.

 

[fireproof78]

The forcenet.

I got banned for my critisms of Disney, the last jedi and EA games.
And no I was not spewing any sort of hatred at cast or crew.
My posts where basically the same as here.

That sites just modded by easily triggered snowflakes with control issues.

Frankly, I don't care. I stopped going to that site a long time a go and haven't looked back. I participated in movie discussions in a variety of forums, and I see the debate go on.

 

[Spot261]

Roddenberry admitted that Wesley was modeled after himself.

On the special The Star Trek Saga: From One Generation To The Next, in an interview with Gene Roddenberry, he says that Wesley was built a little bit after himself at the age of 14, although Roddenberry admits he was never the genius that Wesley was. (Gene's middle name was Wesley).​

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Wesley_Crusher

Does it count if you are an adult inserting your child self?

 

[PureCrimson]

The very obvious agenda that "females" (always a good sign when females is in scare quotes for some reason) comprise over 50% of the population and serve in leadership and scientific and lifesaving roles, and that TV shows and movies should reflect that to have proper "representation" (scare quotes again to show that you don't consider it important).

One word for you:

Whoosh.

 

[Disco!Disco!]

It's a meaningless term because everyone has their own criteria for what it is but for me - really it needs to be a character inserted into the narrative later than the original existing characters. The oft-mentioned Commander Piper is a perfect example she's appears out of nowhere and is simply wonderful.

I really can't blame women for making characters like Piper because the Star Trek universe, especially back then, didn't have enough female characters.

Even my beloved DS9 was deficient.

And from what I hear, people like Piper.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Does it count if you are an adult inserting your child self?

With respect to TNG, it's worth noting that we're considering a situation when a literally perfect example of a Mary Sue or Gary Stu could not have been inserted into the show. It just never would have flown. It would have been too absurd and nixed. We're necessarily at best discussing characters that may (or may not) exhibit only some of the characteristics, though possibly many.

With that out of the way, as the answer to your question quoted above: why not? It can represent a type of wish-fulfillment.

And regardless of whether Gene himself had this experience (and I really don't know), one of the key traits of Wesley is that he is an adolescent actually functioning on an adult level. You mentioned narcissism. Wesley is not a narcissist, but believing that one holds that extreme degree of competence is a trait that a narcissist could certainly have. The wish-fulfillment for a narcissist could easily be represented by author avatar actually having such a degree of competence instead of only believing he possesses high skills.

I think there are enough Gary Stu-ish elements to say that Wesley is very much like a Gary Stu.

 

[Phil123]

Some interesting debates here. I of course have no problem with criticising badly written characters, just would like to see it done in a way that didn't seem so sexist, or potentially so.

And as many have pointed out, highly competent female characters are criticised far far more than highly competent male ones.

 

[marlboro]

I really can't blame women for making characters like Piper because the Star Trek universe, especially back then, didn't have enough female characters.

Even my beloved DS9 was deficient.

And from what I hear, people like Piper.

Could I interest you in some of my Cagney and Lacey fan fiction? I've created a cool new character named Warlboro who joins the team. He's hip, handsome, and makes Sherlock Holmes look like Mr. Bean. And there's a steamy Romantic triangle, of course, since the girls can't resist his charms. Sounds good, right?