Anybody Notice The Increase In TNG Bashing?

[Jayson]

Spider said:
Times change, people change, but old TV shows stay the same. In some ways TNG is a bit dated, but I still love it. I certainly like the TV show a lot better than those silly movies they made.

In away though tv shows don't stay the same though because our perspective on them changes do to the fact we as individuals change and society changes. Then their is the fact that twist and surprises within a episode are no longer a twist or surprise because we already know what will happen. That is why shows that are very plot oriented I think tend to not hold up as well as things that are more character driven. Intresting characters and humor are the things that I feel best hold up in repeat viewings. TOS was popular and loved not because the stories were so great but because people want to watch Kirk/Spock and McCoy interact. TNG had those type of characters but they were mostly the guest stars such as Q,Barclay,Ro etc. The series regulars while well written are not so great you want to watch them over and over. Then their is a lack of humor and more impotantly humor that is funny that hurts. Even when they tried to be funny the show just couldn't do it well because like drama I feel humor also comes from conflict. Imagine how funny "rescue Me" would be if the entire gang was well-adjusted guys who got along just swell.

Jason

 

[Jonesy]

I take it all in stride. I think there's a lot of genuinely-deserved criticism of TNG. However, I tend to think that generalizations like "The Characters Were Perfect" (TM) are just that, generalizations.

I never once cared that the bridge officers were not at each other's throats in every episode. As long as there was a story to tell and that the conflict came from somewhere, (and yes that was often outside of the bridge crew) it doesn't matter.

TNG's great episodes and great stories stand on their own. I happen to really still enjoy virtually every episode of the third, fifth, and sixth season - even after seeing them countless numbers of time. I just watched "The Drumhead" today - a prime example of how good the show often was.

I also think that the first season of the show was (largely) a joke and is a very easy target. I also think that's where a great deal of the criticism about the "perfect characters" and "perfect humanity" lies at. (when Roddenberry was running the show)

And what I always remind myself is that every other series of Star Trek had at least one largely forgettable season of their show.

 

[Anna Yolei]

I wouldn't say it's "bashing" per se, so much as it's people saying their loev of the series is kind of wearing thin and they can see it's nto quite perfect. Kind of like when you see a rerun of a cartoon or show you loved as a kid and come back to it as an adult and say "I watched THAT?!" The only time I've really seen anything resembling flat-out bashing was two years ago following Enterprise's godawful finale, where fans blamed Frakes and Sirtis for this sucking because they could have said no to the script and weren't on contract.

I've been here close to four years now, and I've noticed TNG get quite a bit of guff...well, more than I expected to say this is supposedly the most popular Trek series. I'll admit that much of it's overrated, but I still enjoy tit for what it is and not hate it for not being with the times. I personally can live without grittiness in my TV.

 

[jimbtnp2]

Jayson said:

Spider said:
Times change, people change, but old TV shows stay the same. In some ways TNG is a bit dated, but I still love it. I certainly like the TV show a lot better than those silly movies they made.

In away though tv shows don't stay the same though because our perspective on them changes do to the fact we as individuals change and society changes. Then their is the fact that twist and surprises within a episode are no longer a twist or surprise because we already know what will happen. That is why shows that are very plot oriented I think tend to not hold up as well as things that are more character driven. Intresting characters and humor are the things that I feel best hold up in repeat viewings. TOS was popular and loved not because the stories were so great but because people want to watch Kirk/Spock and McCoy interact. TNG had those type of characters but they were mostly the guest stars such as Q,Barclay,Ro etc. The series regulars while well written are not so great you want to watch them over and over. Then their is a lack of humor and more impotantly humor that is funny that hurts. Even when they tried to be funny the show just couldn't do it well because like drama I feel humor also comes from conflict. Imagine how funny "rescue Me" would be if the entire gang was well-adjusted guys who got along just swell.

Jason

biy u don't get it

TOS WAS Great story telling, thats why it stood the test of time

 

[jimbtnp2]

Jonesy said:
I take it all in stride. I think there's a lot of genuinely-deserved criticism of TNG. However, I tend to think that generalizations like "The Characters Were Perfect" (TM) are just that, generalizations.

I never once cared that the bridge officers were not at each other's throats in every episode. As long as there was a story to tell and that the conflict came from somewhere, (and yes that was often outside of the bridge crew) it doesn't matter.

TNG's great episodes and great stories stand on their own. I happen to really still enjoy virtually every episode of the third, fifth, and sixth season - even after seeing them countless numbers of time. I just watched "The Drumhead" today - a prime example of how good the show often was.

I also think that the first season of the show was (largely) a joke and is a very easy target. I also think that's where a great deal of the criticism about the "perfect characters" and "perfect humanity" lies at. (when Roddenberry was running the show)

And what I always remind myself is that every other series of Star Trek had at least one largely forgettable season of their show.

S1 was the only real ST of the 7 seasons, S3 comes 2nd, the rest are pale imitations

 

[tomalak301]

jimbtnp2 said:

Jonesy said:
I take it all in stride. I think there's a lot of genuinely-deserved criticism of TNG. However, I tend to think that generalizations like "The Characters Were Perfect" (TM) are just that, generalizations.

I never once cared that the bridge officers were not at each other's throats in every episode. As long as there was a story to tell and that the conflict came from somewhere, (and yes that was often outside of the bridge crew) it doesn't matter.

TNG's great episodes and great stories stand on their own. I happen to really still enjoy virtually every episode of the third, fifth, and sixth season - even after seeing them countless numbers of time. I just watched "The Drumhead" today - a prime example of how good the show often was.

I also think that the first season of the show was (largely) a joke and is a very easy target. I also think that's where a great deal of the criticism about the "perfect characters" and "perfect humanity" lies at. (when Roddenberry was running the show)

And what I always remind myself is that every other series of Star Trek had at least one largely forgettable season of their show.

S1 was the only real ST of the 7 seasons, S3 comes 2nd, the rest are pale imitations

Speaking of generalizations.

Good post Jonesy

 

[Anwar]

Don't forget, this is the same guy who thinks "Balance of Terror" and "City on the edge of forever" were hard sci-fi stories when it's really just "The Enemy Below" in space, and COTEOF is really a fantasy story tan anything else.

 

[Noname Given]

Anwar said:
Don't forget, this is the same guy who thinks "Balance of Terror" and "City on the edge of forever" were hard sci-fi stories when it's really just "The Enemy Below" in space, and COTEOF is really a fantasy story tan anything else.

While I've never been a big fan of CoTEoF; I don't understand why you would consider it a fantasy story. What? Were you upset that Spock didn't spend ten minutes giving a technobabble/particle exposition based on tricorder readings of for the Gaurdian worked? CoTEoF is indeed a prime example of Star Trek doing a 'hard' science fiction story.

As for BOT - Just because it did take elements from WWII submarine flick made 10 years earlier; that has no bearing on whether or niot it constituted 'hard' science fiction. But again, it was indeed also 'hard' science fiction.

 

[Anwar]

Well, maybe I have a differant idea of Hard Sci-fi then it happens when I read books too. I read "Foundations" by Asimov and I find it more of a hard sci-fi story than those two Man-Kzin War stories by Jerry Purnelle about some horny anthropoligist who releases primitive neanderthals from stasis on a zoo planet just so he can have sex with a female. Yet both are considered "Hard" sci-fi.

 

[Vulcanian]

I think we're all paranoid that our favorite show is one no one likes. There's a thread about ppl not liking Deep Space Nine on the DS9 boards.

That's the internet for you. Just settle down and watch your show.

 

[Trubinator]

slappy said:
It's almost starting to be a trend since Trek's "decline". People coming out of the woodwork to take shots at TNG and it's legacy. Especially since they're dusting off Kirk and pushing those guys back into the mix.

All of a sudden, Picard and crew were always stodgy, stiff, uber-perfect and unrelatable. It was all technobabble and lacked drama. The 24th century was uptight and too advanced and convoluted to go forward. Where'd all this come from?

I blame BSg (and yes, the capitalization was intentional) for the declining interest in TNG. It revived the genre of "dark and sexy" where everything has to be new, vulgar, and completely uninteresting. But it doesn't matter to me because I KNOW TNG was a smash hit for a long time. No amount of slamming will ever change this for me, and that is all that matters.

 

[WeAreTheBorg]

slappy said:
It's almost starting to be a trend since Trek's "decline". People coming out of the woodwork to take shots at TNG and it's legacy. Especially since they're dusting off Kirk and pushing those guys back into the mix.

All of a sudden, Picard and crew were always stodgy, stiff, uber-perfect and unrelatable. It was all technobabble and lacked drama. The 24th century was uptight and too advanced and convoluted to go forward. Where'd all this come from?

Those criticisms are in all honesty sort of true. No show is perfect. But I havnt noticed this trend increase lately, nor do I see it at unwarranted levels. Most people regard TNG with nostalgic fondness and tend to remember the good.

 

[Spider]

Trubinator said:

slappy said:
It's almost starting to be a trend since Trek's "decline". People coming out of the woodwork to take shots at TNG and it's legacy. Especially since they're dusting off Kirk and pushing those guys back into the mix.

All of a sudden, Picard and crew were always stodgy, stiff, uber-perfect and unrelatable. It was all technobabble and lacked drama. The 24th century was uptight and too advanced and convoluted to go forward. Where'd all this come from?

I blame BSg (and yes, the capitalization was intentional) for the declining interest in TNG. It revived the genre of "dark and sexy" where everything has to be new, vulgar, and completely uninteresting. But it doesn't matter to me because I KNOW TNG was a smash hit for a long time. No amount of slamming will ever change this for me, and that is all that matters.

TNG was and still is the most popular version of Trek on TV as far as the ratings. So whatever folks on this board have to say, the TV viewing public (that doesn't post here) says something different.

 

[Noname Given]

Trubinator said:

slappy said:
It's almost starting to be a trend since Trek's "decline". People coming out of the woodwork to take shots at TNG and it's legacy. Especially since they're dusting off Kirk and pushing those guys back into the mix.

All of a sudden, Picard and crew were always stodgy, stiff, uber-perfect and unrelatable. It was all technobabble and lacked drama. The 24th century was uptight and too advanced and convoluted to go forward. Where'd all this come from?

I blame BSg (and yes, the capitalization was intentional) for the declining interest in TNG. It revived the genre of "dark and sexy" where everything has to be new, vulgar, and completely uninteresting. But it doesn't matter to me because I KNOW TNG was a smash hit for a long time. No amount of slamming will ever change this for me, and that is all that matters.

Given that (if you look at it's ratings) no one is left watching nuBSG (and the MOST it ever got was 4 million for the mini; and at it's highest regular series episode rating on average it got 2.5 million viewers); I don't think you could say:

It made 'dark scuience fiction' more popular (and the decline in ratings are probably the best proof of that).

It has caused a 'declining interst' in TNG or Star Trek in general.

Hell, ENT's LOWEST average series ratings were consistently BETTER than nuBSG's in nuBSG's 'heyday'; (and at the time UPN and the Sci-Fi channel had about the same prcentage of National coverage; and nuBSG had the advantage of EVERY showing being counted - ENT's rating were based on it's listed Network timeslot only - and nuBSG was never pre-emted). Also some ENT reruns on Sci-Fi have bettwen nuBSG episodes shown in the same week on occassion.

The bottom line is that nuBSG isn't, and NEVER was more popular than Star Trek - and if you believe it ever was, it's because the Sci Fi channel's marketing machine spun some early critical praise; and the mini-series numbers to promote it as 'more popular than Star Trek'; but honestly, even in it's heyday, it never was.

 

[Jayson]

jimbtnp2 said:

Jayson said:

Spider said:
Times change, people change, but old TV shows stay the same. In some ways TNG is a bit dated, but I still love it. I certainly like the TV show a lot better than those silly movies they made.

In away though tv shows don't stay the same though because our perspective on them changes do to the fact we as individuals change and society changes. Then their is the fact that twist and surprises within a episode are no longer a twist or surprise because we already know what will happen. That is why shows that are very plot oriented I think tend to not hold up as well as things that are more character driven. Intresting characters and humor are the things that I feel best hold up in repeat viewings. TOS was popular and loved not because the stories were so great but because people want to watch Kirk/Spock and McCoy interact. TNG had those type of characters but they were mostly the guest stars such as Q,Barclay,Ro etc. The series regulars while well written are not so great you want to watch them over and over. Then their is a lack of humor and more impotantly humor that is funny that hurts. Even when they tried to be funny the show just couldn't do it well because like drama I feel humor also comes from conflict. Imagine how funny "rescue Me" would be if the entire gang was well-adjusted guys who got along just swell.

Jason

biy u don't get it

TOS WAS Great story telling, thats why it stood the test of time

I agree TOS had great stories. What I mean though is people watch reruns for the characters and the moments. People already know the story of each episode so people don't watch a episode wondering what will happen next and you can't be shocked by story twists. TNG had some good stories but what they lacked was compelling characters you enjoy watching even when the script happens to be bad like it sometimes is in any tv show. Well to be more exact it did have a few compelling characters but most of them were guest star characters like Ro and Barclay and so forth who seemed less restained by Roddenberry's rules of a perfect society. The writers tried hard to make the TNG characters rise above his dumb rules and had luck sometimes because they had a talented writing staff but they could never go sway to far away from the rules which keeps the characters from being great.


Jason

 

[ChristopherPike]

TNG was a phenomenonal success on TV and somehow managed to become Trek for the masses back in the '90s. If anything it's because none of the films managed to recreate that ensemble style, which led to it's fall in popularity. Not even First Contact matched the show at its best. The series was thought-proking, adept at humour, with dog fights in space kept to a minimum because of Picard's diplomacy. Each reunion from Generations onwards lost something important from the formula. TNG always needed a film to match The Voyage Home. Witty, with an important social message and no Dr. Evil-esque villian. C'est la vie.

 

[WeAreTheBorg]

Trubinator said:

slappy said:
It's almost starting to be a trend since Trek's "decline". People coming out of the woodwork to take shots at TNG and it's legacy. Especially since they're dusting off Kirk and pushing those guys back into the mix.

All of a sudden, Picard and crew were always stodgy, stiff, uber-perfect and unrelatable. It was all technobabble and lacked drama. The 24th century was uptight and too advanced and convoluted to go forward. Where'd all this come from?

I blame BSg (and yes, the capitalization was intentional) for the declining interest in TNG. It revived the genre of "dark and sexy" where everything has to be new, vulgar, and completely uninteresting. But it doesn't matter to me because I KNOW TNG was a smash hit for a long time. No amount of slamming will ever change this for me, and that is all that matters.

Not to change the topic, but BSG is not "dark and sexy" its "dark and ugly". Its realistic and has none of the idealism TNG had. You don't have to like it but you miss the point, methinks. To me, blatant idealism isn't as interesting as muddy ambiguous morality and unpredictable outcomes that don't always ally themselves with "the good guys".

 

[Anna Yolei]

Vulcanian said:
I think we're all paranoid that our favorite show is one no one likes. There's a thread about ppl not liking Deep Space Nine on the DS9 boards.

...

No matter how overrated people find TNG, I'm sure the the number of fans will ALWAYS outnumber the amount of loyalist ENT and VOY fans combined. I doubt TNG will ever be in danger of being the show no one likes.

 

[Jack Bauer]

I think people are just less forgiving of it's flaws and plus they've had years and years to see the episodes over and over and peope just notice flaws they may have missed previously.

 

[RAMA]

Jealousy?? I hate the in-fighting between fans, but really...STNG is the most watched, most decorated, and best ST show of all....they always try to knock down the best.

RAMA