oh yeah, ok. This stuff just started; no one was saying it 20 years ago. Riiiight.
AND: I happen to be very good looking.
First: balls.
Second: That would be bad... why?
Anybody Notice The Increase In TNG Bashing?
- Thread starter slappy
- Start date
oh yeah, ok. This stuff just started; no one was saying it 20 years ago. Riiiight.
AND: I happen to be very good looking.
First: balls.
Second: That would be bad... why?
Apples and Oranges. TNG was and is not TOS. And TOS fans got one more film after it, Star Trek VI: TUC. Given that at that time the TOS films and TNG series had COMPLETELY different producers and creative teams, the claim is further dubious. Paramount realized that TOS and TNG were destict and seperate entities with some cross-pollination between fans.
Do you like those rose colored glasses much. TNG started the techno-babble craze that lasted through ALL of 24th century Star Trek. Geordi was OFTEN 're-polorizing', 'de-polorizing', and somehow detecting the particles that were 'undetectible by standard sensors...' Your comment shows that you HAVEN'T watched TOS where such techno-babble was virtually non-existant.
Hell, in The Naked Now; Scotty tell Kirk, "I can't change the laws of physics; you CAN'T mix matter and anti-matter cold."
Then, in Relics; we suddenly have Scotty saying (about the above incident after spouting something to Geordi about the warp field 'phase lock' being wrong): "and I told the Captain, I couldn't give him warp drive without a proper 'phase-lock'"
TNG started and continued the techno-babble tradition of 24th century Star Trek and I asay that as someone who watched BOTH TOS and TNG first run.
Oh please. the only time we ever saw real/actual conflict between TNG characters was when they were under some alien influence; The Best of Both Worlds and The First Duty and Chain of Command being three notable exceptions. The conflict in BOBW was because there was finally a real threat that a 'particle of the week'couldn't solve (and I maintain it was that real human conflict thatr drew TOS fans to it because this WAS more like a TOS episode than ANY episode previouisly); and TFD's confl;ict was because these WERE some flawed young adults trying to cover up a mistake they made by very Non-PC and non-honorable means. As for CoC; the conflict was because Captain Jellico WAS NOT a PC, well-adjusted human being (a rare breed in 24th centurt Star Trek); and honestly, he WAS somewhat refreshing.
If you bothered to watch TOS you'd understand WHY the original Star Trek fans felt that the TNG crew WAS PC compared to TOS; and have maintained and commented about that from day one. TOS ALSO had character conflict due to alien influence; but IT ALSO had character conflict between the main characters because of the situation they were in; and tempers flared.
What do you want, for every single member of the TNG cast to have perpetually at each other's throats and disgaree about everything? This isn't Blake's Seven where the crew were all criminals/renegades/bastards. And yes there was conflict between the TNG characters within the show, like with Maddox, Hobson, Nechayev, or do they not count?
Not between the main Characters. For example, did we EVER see B. Crusher/Picard go at it like Kirk/McCoy did in TOS The Corbomite Manuever over TNG's seven season run? Nope. And Picard was in some way responsible for the death of her husband.
And (imo) that's what was missing due to GR's edict that 78 years after the Kirk era, StarFleet crews were so psychologically well adjust (and they even had a Counselor on board to keep them that way); that they would NEVER arguye/fight amonst themselves.
As for Captain/Admiral conflict - It was usually opf two types:
The duped admiral who did know he/she was being used; but Picard and Co. did and brought that to light.
The 'Evil' Admiral with ulterior motives that Picard and Co. eventually bring to Justice.
Yes, there was the Nechev chew out for Giving a Borg a name, nursing it back to health and sending it to the collective (and that's not 'conflict'; more of a justified dressing down).
But NONE of these are like say:
Kirk and Commodore Stone in TOS Court Martial where it's believed that Kirk effectively murdered someone because of teh resentment that person held for him, and the fact he pressures Kirk to accept a ground assignment - at which point Kirk demands a court martial proceeding.
Or the Kirk/Commadore mendez conflict that is rife throughout TOS - The Menagerie I & II.
It's just not in the same class except for those few TNG episodes I mentioned in my earlier post above.
There was Nechayev/Picard conflict in her being upset that Picard didn't use Hugh as a weapon like they thought of before, or how he disobeyed her order to remove the Dorvan V settlers (although an agreement was reached between them and the Cardassians) and such.
With Court Martial it's still the "duped Admiral" thing in that we (te audience) knew Kirk was framed (come on, they wouldn't do that to the main character) and the episode was about proving he was framed. It may not be exactly like how TNG did it but it's still basically the same thing.
With Mendez it was Kirk believing Spock did what he did for good reasons while Mendez wanted him tried for his actions, which isn't that differt from the Maddox thing and Data, only it wasn't trying him, it was wanting him dismantled.
With Court Martial it's still the "duped Admiral" thing in that we (te audience) knew Kirk was framed (come on, they wouldn't do that to the main character) and the episode was about proving he was framed. It may not be exactly like how TNG did it but it's still basically the same thing.
With Mendez it was Kirk believing Spock did what he did for good reasons while Mendez wanted him tried for his actions, which isn't that differt from the Maddox thing and Data, only it wasn't trying him, it was wanting him dismantled.
I personally don't see why it's necessary to have the main characters of a TV show in conflict with each other, unless that's what is called for in the type of show that it is.
In TNG, the Enterprise was the flagship of the fleet, and was more often than not refered to as a exploration, diplomatic, and scientific research vessal than a war vessel. It would make more sense that the top management (the lead officers) of such a ship would get along quite well.
If the shows setting was more of a war time event (like DS9) then I could see the point.
In TNG, the Enterprise was the flagship of the fleet, and was more often than not refered to as a exploration, diplomatic, and scientific research vessal than a war vessel. It would make more sense that the top management (the lead officers) of such a ship would get along quite well.
If the shows setting was more of a war time event (like DS9) then I could see the point.
What about every single time Ensign Ro was on screen? Her and Riker. Her and O'Brian. Her and Picard.
Riker and Geordi chewed out Barclay pretty bad during his first episode.
Data and Worf during Gambit part 2. Very tense.
Pulaski and Picard didn't get off to a good start, with his "Will you let me finish my sentences please" criticism directed her way.
And Dr. Crusher got quite lippy with Picard at the beginning of The High Ground, telling him that she wasn't going anywhere.
Or a fuming jealousy of Riker of Worf and Troi.
Picard yelling at Worf for killing Duras.
There's TONS of character conflict and examples of non-perfect people on the show. As long as you open your eyes and pay attention.
Riker and Geordi chewed out Barclay pretty bad during his first episode.
Data and Worf during Gambit part 2. Very tense.
Pulaski and Picard didn't get off to a good start, with his "Will you let me finish my sentences please" criticism directed her way.
And Dr. Crusher got quite lippy with Picard at the beginning of The High Ground, telling him that she wasn't going anywhere.
Or a fuming jealousy of Riker of Worf and Troi.
Picard yelling at Worf for killing Duras.
There's TONS of character conflict and examples of non-perfect people on the show. As long as you open your eyes and pay attention.
The only "conflict" in TNG was that after-school special type in which one person comes to the other at the end and says "you were right..."
That's not conflict.
And petty bickering doesn't count either.
Show me a program where colleagues have deep philosophical differences that have immediate ramifications and then we have something.
That's not conflict.
And petty bickering doesn't count either.
Show me a program where colleagues have deep philosophical differences that have immediate ramifications and then we have something.
I love this aspect of the Picard/Crusher relationship. Besides the obvious friendship and flirtation between them, they had some great moments of conflict throughout the series like the one you mentioned above. A few more that come to mind:
The Perfect Mate - Beverly arguing to Picard about how Kamala was being treated.
I Borg - her being against the idea of wiping out an entire race.
Symbiosis - arguing with Picard over his decision on what to do about the Brekkian/Ornaran situation.
Suspicions - defying his orders and giving the Ferengi scientist an autopsy.
^Wasn't there also a scene in the first episode where Picard was getting Crusher to transfer off the ship because their past relationship. I know it was brought up in "Attached" but I could be wrong.
Yeah, your right. It was in both episodes. I think the transfer was more of a suggestion on his part. He told her that he would be a constant reminder of her husband's death and he would understand if she wanted to leave to go to another ship. Something along those lines if memory serves me right.
Demographics. What do you think the average age of posters here is?
Probably because of the bitter taste of the TNG movies, and the fact that television has changed quite a bit in the past 20 years. People didn't notice the reset button employed by TNG back then, but it is quite annoying today.
MeanJoePhaser
Admiral
I think it's partly socio-political. It's hard to imagine a utopian future currently. Too much of TNG had simple resolutions to conflicts that seems unmanagable in the early 21st century. We are in the NuBSG and 24 age.
Also on that note, with as many as 26 episodes per TNG season, there were quite a few clunkers. Some of the better current shows don't waste hours...or as many hours. I'm NOT including Smallville there. They waste 15 out of 22 episodes usually. Ha.
Also on that note, with as many as 26 episodes per TNG season, there were quite a few clunkers. Some of the better current shows don't waste hours...or as many hours. I'm NOT including Smallville there. They waste 15 out of 22 episodes usually. Ha.
Actually some of those complaints have been around since the show was still on. I tend to agree with alot of it as well and TNG use to be my favorite. It's not about trying to be cool because if I was trying to do that I wouldn't be talking about Star Trek in the internet if being cool was my or most peoples goal when it comes to complaining about TNG.
To me it is more about it not holding up well to repeat viewings. The show is well written but the characters are not all the great because they are kind of stiff and boring. It doesn't help that it lacked a sense of humor that is really big in modern sci-fi such as "Stargate" and "Buffy" and whatnot. Basically better shows have come and gone since TNG left tv. The show hasn't sunk as far as "Transformers" and other bad 80's sitcoms did once nostiga wears off but the flaws do become more evident with time.
Jason
