antimatter in warp drive - first mentions?

[F. King Daniel]

I'm curious which episode first established that antimatter is part of the Enterprise's warp drive? And which first explained that a matter/antimatter reaction powered the warp engines? I'm working on Star Trek Imponderables #2 and need a clip or two to go after the statement in "The Alternative Factor" that if matter and antimatter meet, it's the total annihilation "of everything that exists, everywhere."

Thanks.

 

[J.T.B.]

"The Naked Time," episode 4, production number 7. "You can't mix matter and antimatter cold!"

 

[F. King Daniel]

Thank you! I didn't realize they'd already decided antimatter was starship fuel before "The Alternative Factor"

 

[Kemaiku]

It's implied the nacelles both have a matter/antimatter reaction vessel (or simply *are* large reactors) that powers them as two separate engines in an outboard fashion, that the area behind the grill in engineering is some large transformer receving the energy from them.

But yes, they imply the engines have large stores of antimatter up there as well as matter.

 

[Doug Otte]

It's implied the nacelles both have a matter/antimatter reaction vessel (or simply *are* large reactors) that powers them as two separate engines in an outboard fashion, that the area behind the grill in engineering is some large transformer receving the energy from them.

But yes, they imply the engines have large stores of antimatter up there as well as matter.

In which episode was it implied that the nacelles have matter/antimatter reactors?

Canon Officer #6 Doug
(no; it's not deja vu; I really did put almost the same response in another thread just now)

 

[Knight Templar]

It's implied the nacelles both have a matter/antimatter reaction vessel (or simply *are* large reactors) that powers them as two separate engines in an outboard fashion, that the area behind the grill in engineering is some large transformer receving the energy from them.

But yes, they imply the engines have large stores of antimatter up there as well as matter.

In which episode was it implied that the nacelles have matter/antimatter reactors?

Canon Officer #6 Doug
(no; it's not deja vu; I really did put almost the same response in another thread just now)

IIRC, in "The Savage Curtain", the Enterprise engines go into "Red Zone Proximity" where they will explode in only four hours.

Kirk tells Scotty to "jettison (the nacelles) if possible", before communications are blocked.

 

[Timo]

...It's not rock-solid or watertight, though. Say, jettisoning the nacelles might reduce the load on the engines (which would be situated somewhere else, that is, in the secondary hull) and take them out of the "red zone", thereby averting the explosion.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Knight Templar]

...It's not rock-solid or watertight, though. Say, jettisoning the nacelles might reduce the load on the engines (which would be situated somewhere else, that is, in the secondary hull) and take them out of the "red zone", thereby averting the explosion.

Timo Saloniemi

Bit of a reach don't you think?

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In which episode was it implied that the nacelles have matter/antimatter reactors?

If you are talking about TOS nacelles, then this has been debated extensively, all but endlessly, and ultimately inconclusively, in the Trek Tech forum.

 

[Christopher]

Thank you! I didn't realize they'd already decided antimatter was starship fuel before "The Alternative Factor"

Which is just one of the many ways that "The Alternative Factor" is a stupid episode. It contradicted two things that had previously been established: that a matter-antimatter reaction powered the engines, and that (di)lithium crystals channeled ship's power, as seen in "Mudd's Women" (rather than being the source of it as TAF alleged).

If you want to know the first ever mention in science fiction of a "warp" propulsion system powered by matter-antimatter annihilation, that would probably be in John W. Campbell's Islands of Space in 1930 (see my earlier discussion in this post), except it was called a "space strain" drive and it used the old alternate name for antimatter, "contraterrene."

 

[TorontoTrekker]

It's implied the nacelles both have a matter/antimatter reaction vessel (or simply *are* large reactors) that powers them as two separate engines in an outboard fashion, that the area behind the grill in engineering is some large transformer receving the energy from them.

But yes, they imply the engines have large stores of antimatter up there as well as matter.

In which episode was it implied that the nacelles have matter/antimatter reactors?

Canon Officer #6 Doug
(no; it's not deja vu; I really did put almost the same response in another thread just now)

IIRC, in "The Savage Curtain", the Enterprise engines go into "Red Zone Proximity" where they will explode in only four hours.

Kirk tells Scotty to "jettison (the nacelles) if possible", before communications are blocked.

I don't remember the line about "Red Zone Proximity," but I think Kirk's order to Scotty to jettison the nacelles was in "The Apple."

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In which episode was it implied that the nacelles have matter/antimatter reactors?

Canon Officer #6 Doug
(no; it's not deja vu; I really did put almost the same response in another thread just now)

IIRC, in "The Savage Curtain", the Enterprise engines go into "Red Zone Proximity" where they will explode in only four hours.

Kirk tells Scotty to "jettison (the nacelles) if possible", before communications are blocked.

I don't remember the line about "Red Zone Proximity," but I think Kirk's order to Scotty to jettison the nacelles was in "The Apple."

From The Savage Curtain [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/77.htm]:

[Bridge]

SCOTT: I can't explain it, sir, but the matter and antimatter are in red zone proximity.
KIRK [OC]: What caused that?
SCOTT; There's no knowing and there's no stopping it either. The shielding is breaking down. I estimate four hours before it goes completely. Four hours before the ship blows up.

[Planet surface]

ROCK: The estimate is quite correct. Your ship will blow itself to bits within four hours, Captain, unless you defeat the others before then. Is that cause enough to fight for?
KIRK: What if they defeat us?

[Bridge]

ROCK [on viewscreen]: To save your ship and your crew, you have to win.

[Planet surface]

KIRK: Scotty, inform Starfleet Command. Disengage nacelles, Jettison if possible. Mister Spock, assist them. Advise and analyse. Scotty? Scotty?

From The Apple [http://www.chakoteya.net/StarTrek/38.htm]:

KIRK: Then use your imagination. Tie every ounce of power the ship has into the impulse engines. Discard the warp drive nacelles if you have to, and crack out of there with the main section, but get that ship out of there!

 

[Timo]

Bit of a reach don't you think?

...A reach for consistency with all those episodes where "She's gonna blow, Capt'n!" is resolved by fiddling with machinery in the engineering hull.

Besides, Kirk only speaks of "disengaging" (which is established as not being "jettisoning") as a necessity. If the engines are going to blow and nothing can be done about it, then apparently the engines aren't in the nacelles because Kirk doesn't want them jettisoned except "if possible". If, OTOH, the engines can be stopped from blowing by disengaging the nacelles without jettisoning them, then there's no particular support for the idea that the nacelles house the antimatter.

It contradicted two things that had previously been established: that a matter-antimatter reaction powered the engines, and that (di)lithium crystals channeled ship's power, as seen in "Mudd's Women" (rather than being the source of it as TAF alleged).

Why should either of these be contradicted by the episode? Dilithium plays a key role in the operation of Kirk's and Lazarus' ships both, but in both cases it could be the role of channeling the power. Neither ship works particularly well without dilithium, hence all the recharging and stealing activity there. But Kirk's ship does work, demonstrating all the usual capabilities associated with auxiliary power, again consistently with "Mudd's Women" and the rest.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Knight Templar]

"The Alternative Factor" can pretty much be disregarded because

1) It was far and away the worse episode of the entire first seasons. The first season of the original Star Trek being pretty much one of the greatest science fiction television seasons in history.

2) The writer and producers at that point clearly had an odd idea about antimatter (which has been copied in other science fiction). The idea being that something made of antimatter had to come in contact with its matter composed EXACT opposite in order to explode. Thus, the matter and antimatter Lazarus.

 

[Timo]

We could disregard "Mudd's Women" by the same token - utter shit in terms of drama, so clearly dilithium cannot be mined and Harry Mudd never met our heroes before "I, Mudd", which can also be disregarded and thus Norman the Android never existed and since "What Are Little Girls.." also was poorly written, Data really can be unique in his androidness...

Really, some of the dilithium technobabble in "Alternative Factor" can be considered not just its saving grace, but actually pretty fundamental to our understanding of treknology. We get an early version of coaxing dilithium back to life, as later seen in ST4:TVH. We get to see what Starfleet dilithium looks like, rather than the emergency "field repairs" solutions seen in "Mudd's Women" and "Elaan of Troyius". And we get "energizers", plus some data on what works and what doesn't without dilithium...

OTOH, we could assume that our heroes talk about antimatter in a figurative sense when they discuss the risks of the two Lazari meeting. Or we could read a bit extra into this exchange:

Lazarus: "You understand."
Kirk: "Not completely. This is a parallel universe?"
Lazarus: "Of course."
Kirk: "Antimatter?"
Lazarus: "Here, yes."
Kirk: "And if identical particles meet-"
Lazarus: "The end of everything."

What does the odd "Here, yes" mean? Apparently, the risk lies in the mad Lazarus meeting the slightly less one in the parallel universe; perhaps there is no risk with the meeting taking place in Kirk's own universe? Perhaps one is antimatter and the other is matter only "here", while both are matter "there"?

Note also that the mad Lazarus does not use dilithium crystals as an energy source. Kirk's passage drains his crystals, and he re-energizes them with equipment in his ship; the ship is the source of the energy, and the crystals just mediate or capacitate somehow.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Christopher]

"The Alternative Factor" can pretty much be disregarded because

1) It was far and away the worse episode of the entire first seasons. The first season of the original Star Trek being pretty much one of the greatest science fiction television seasons in history.

2) The writer and producers at that point clearly had an odd idea about antimatter (which has been copied in other science fiction). The idea being that something made of antimatter had to come in contact with its matter composed EXACT opposite in order to explode. Thus, the matter and antimatter Lazarus.

Well, there are a lot of bad episodes and a lot of odd ideas in Trek. What's significant is that the shows themselves ignored TAF's eccentric interpretation of antimatter and dilithium (and, of course, that TAF contradicted what had already been established about them). And, in fact, no subsequent Trek episode has ever referenced anything from TAF, and virtually no tie-in fiction has done so either (all I'm sure of is one story in one of the Strange New Worlds anthologies). So it's pretty much a continuity orphan. (See also VGR: "Threshold," which was subsequently ignored and contradicted and was explicitly disowned by its own writer -- although it did introduce a new shuttlecraft design which was kept in later episodes.)

 

[Knight Templar]

^ I like that term "continuity orphan".

 

[Doug Otte]

Well, there are a lot of bad episodes and a lot of odd ideas in Trek. What's significant is that the shows themselves ignored TAF's eccentric interpretation of antimatter and dilithium (and, of course, that TAF contradicted what had already been established about them). And, in fact, no subsequent Trek episode has ever referenced anything from TAF, and virtually no tie-in fiction has done so either (all I'm sure of is one story in one of the Strange New Worlds anthologies). So it's pretty much a continuity orphan. (See also VGR: "Threshold," which was subsequently ignored and contradicted and was explicitly disowned by its own writer -- although it did introduce a new shuttlecraft design which was kept in later episodes.)

Cool! So those episodes were themselves part of an alternate universe following a path different to the other, consistent episodes. I like that explanation. Sort of like the JJ-verse...

Doug

 

[Christopher]

No, they were just stories that the creators ignored, rendering them apocryphal. No alternate universes (since the laws of physics should be the same in any alternate timeline), just bad stories that were later treated as untrue.

In the introductory material to his novelization of ST:TMP, Roddenberry adopted the persona of a resident of the 23rd century who'd made a dramatic series based on the "real" adventures of the Enterprise crew, and apologized for that series' occasional factual inaccuracies and liberties with the truth. And when he was asked about the change in the Klingons' appearance in TMP, he asked audiences to pretend they'd always looked that way, and to assume that the original series simply hadn't portrayed that reality correctly. I think that's a better approach than trying to pretend everything "really happened" in some alternate universe. Just accept that what you're seeing is a dramatization of an underlying reality, and sometimes it makes mistakes and depicts things that didn't really happen.

 

[TIN_MAN]

^^ That's pretty much how I justify the differences in FJ's Tech Manual and Booklet of General Plans from what was seen/heard on TV. FJ's stuff is generally "the reality" (sans an occasional corruption of data ) that was transmitted by accident during one of the time travel incidents/missions. This was then used as the basis for the TV dramatization, which didn't always faithfully reproduce "the reality" in every detail, YMMV of course.