Another take on "there's no money in the 24th century"

[T'Girl]

Jake says humans don't use money.

And in the episode Progress, Jake, Nog and a trader named Ch'ano enter into a business deal, followed by other exchanges that result in Jake acquiring money in the form of GPL. Jake is the driving force in this discussion ...

JAKE: He doesn't have any latinum. Let's exchange for something.
NOG: I don't want something. I want latinum.
CH'ANO: I can't hear you. Can I interest you in a piece of land?
JAKE: Land is good.
NOG: For what? It's nothing but dirt.
JAKE: How much land?
CH'ANO: I can let you have seven tessipates.
JAKE: Seven sounds good.
NOG: First yamok sauce, then stem bolts, now tessipates, and still no profit.
JAKE: We're getting closer. I can feel it.
NOG: You can?
JAKE: I think so.
CH'ANO: Do we have a deal?
JAKE: We'd have to see proof that you own the land.

Jake's denouncement of money, his avocation of "I don't need money," is paper thin.

Picard flat out says there is no money in his century. Lily asks if that means people don't get paid, he doesn't deny it--he only says that humans aren't motivated by accumulating wealth anymore.

Which had nothing to do with Lily's question. Picard ducked the question concerning if he got paid.

Jake tells Quark he sold a book. But the publisher didn't pay him anything--and Jake didn't expect them to.

Jake sold the publisher on the idea of publishing his stories, he flat out told Quark that he was employing a figure of speech.

Tom Paris flat out says money has been extinct since the 22nd century.

But in the 23rd century we see and hear of Humans using money, and referring to it's use.

Not really. There's no need to pay for something that is in unlimited supply. You don't pay for the air you breathe, do you?

But when the exact same air powers a windmill, you do pay for the resulting electrical energy.

Isn't the wind "unlimited?"

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

@Kobayashi: Why would you assume that replicators cost nothing? They require maintenance, energy, bulk matter to operate.

I believe energy is in unlimited supply. There is obviously no energy crisis in that century. As for what little work is required to make the world function, I am sure it can be obtained through goodwill. People who do an excellent job are rewarded with objects d'art for example.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

I believe energy is in unlimited supply.

Since perpetual motion is impossible, energy can never be unlimited.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

I believe energy is in unlimited supply.

Since perpetual motion is impossible, energy can never be unlimited.

"Unlimited" in this context is of course not to be taken literally but on a practical level. Nothing in fact is truly unlimited as the universe itself is made of a limited quantity of matter/energy. I thought we all agreed on that. However, if you have enough of a resource to meet all your reasonable needs/wants then you can call that resource unlimited. There are sources of energy, like matter/energy total conversion, that are in that respect, unlimited.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Jake's denouncement of money, his avocation of "I don't need money," is paper thin.

In "Progress," Jake doesn't need the money. All the trading is done just to help Nog realize his desire to make a profit with the yamok sauce. It's certainly not for Jake's own benefit.

In "In the Cards," Jake doesn't need the money, either. All the trading is done just so Jake can obtain a luxury item, the baseball card, for his father. Some people around the station get things they want was a result of Jake's efforts, but all Jake gets out of it is a hug and the knowledge that people are happier.

There's no personal need of Jake's for money evidenced in either of those episodes. Jake's claim that he doesn't need money is absolutely correct.

 

[T'Girl]

There are sources of energy, like matter/energy total conversion, that are in that respect, unlimited.

I don't believe they have the technology for that kind of power production, "energy total conversion." From what we've seen there are reactors that require fuel in some form, and there was mention of solar power in a TOS movie. While it's likely there is reasonable amount of power for the use of Earth's population, there's no evidence that it is unusually abundant.

People who do an excellent job are rewarded with objects d'art for example.

Or they are paid with money and then if they so choose they can purchase art (or something else).

In "Progress," Jake doesn't need the money. All the trading is done just to help Nog realize his desire to make a profit with the yamok sauce. It's certainly not for Jake's own benefit.

Jake obtained money by engaging in a intellectual challenge, my understanding was Jake and Nog formed a partnership, half the money was Jake's. Jake did apparently make use of the money because by the time of In The Cards it was gone.

There's no personal need of Jake's for money evidenced in either of those episodes. Jake's claim that he doesn't need money is absolutely correct.

Jake needs money to purchase a gift for his father.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

...Jake needs money to purchase a gift for his father.

We're talking about Earth's internal economy. You seem to think it applies to the whole Galaxy. Jake is not buying the card on Earth or from someone from Earth. His father could probably procure him the money as I am sure that since they are on a mission that involves dealings with other cultures they have a special fund they can tap into when necessary but then Jake would have to tell his father what it was for and it would have ruined the surprise, hence the whole story.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

In "Progress," Jake doesn't need the money. All the trading is done just to help Nog realize his desire to make a profit with the yamok sauce. It's certainly not for Jake's own benefit.

Jake obtained money by engaging in a intellectual challenge, my understanding was Jake and Nog formed a partnership, half the money was Jake's. Jake did apparently make use of the money because by the time of In The Cards it was gone.

Or he just gave it to Nog....

There's no personal need of Jake's for money evidenced in either of those episodes. Jake's claim that he doesn't need money is absolutely correct.

Jake needs money to purchase a gift for his father.

That's not what a need is. He simply wants it for that purpose.

We're talking about Earth's internal economy.

But that's true too.

His father could probably procure him the money as I am sure that since they are on a mission that involves dealings with other cultures they have a special fund they can tap into when necessary but then Jake would have to tell his father what it was for and it would have ruined the surprise, hence the whole story.

Great point.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

As for the idea that people have replicator privileges, that seems inadequate to me.

I don't agree.

I am trying to put this as delicately as I can. The reason I don't believe in a society that doesn't have money, and that I interpret Trek's situation to mean that it does have it, has nothing to do with greed, or a LOVE of money. I don't want anyone to be poor, I think everyone should be able to make a decent life for themselves, and I think that rich people should use their money wisely.

The problem I see is, even in a so-called "post-scarcity" society like the Federation, I can only see it being possible with a massive government bureaucracy - and with that, a resulting loss of freedom. Some of my learned colleagues...they know who they are ... believe in a sort of "democratic socialism," and furthermore believe that the Federation is an example of that. That is their right, of course. I won't insult them for believing that.

My response is simply this: I don't believe in democratic socialism. Socialism, IMHO, is anathema to the concept of freedom and democracy. It requires government control and ownership of everything...and how can you have freedom with that?

Like I said though, this is not to say that I think our current system is perfect (far from it, actually), or that rich people should hoard everything they have. Quite the opposite, really. I simply think that people should already WANT to share what they have, and help people out, without the government stepping in and essentially making them do it.

If human nature has already changed enough, by Trek's time, to allow for this, and people really do work to help themselves and others...then that's totally fine with me. But the use of an all-encompassing, government-controlled "command economy" to force them to do so, would not be. If the Federation government has such total control of the economy, I fully would expect them to view replicator privileges as something to be given, or taken away, as they believe necessary. Anything like this that has such potential, can also be abused.

Again, if I've offended anyone by saying what I just said, I do apologize, it's not my intention to troll or to piss anyone off. But other people in this thread have spoken their minds, I'm just taking my turn.

 

[T'Girl]

His father could probably procure him the money as I am sure that since they are on a mission that involves dealings with other cultures they have a special fund they can tap into when necessary ...

As station commander Sisko did most likely have access to a operating fund, however his tapping into such a fund in order to give some of it to his son sounds highly illegal.

Or did you mean Sisko's personal account (like Beverly's in Farpoint)? Then sure, it common for a parent to provide child with money in order for the child to then buy the parent a gift. Although Jake's a little old for that.

I started buying my parents gifts with my own money at around thirteen years.

...Jake needs money to purchase a gift for his father.

That's not what a need is. He simply wants it for that purpose.

I disagree, you could argue that Jake wanted the gift yes, however Jake needed money in order to make a purchase of the gift.

Without the money Jake would have been incapable of making the purchase, it was a necessity to perform the act.

Or he just gave it to Nog....

Or he spent it on Dabo Girls.

We're talking about Earth's internal economy.

No the discussion is larger than that, otherwise events on DS9 wouldn't be a part of it..

 

[CorporalCaptain]

That's not what a need is. He simply wants it for that purpose.

I disagree, you could argue that Jake wanted the gift yes, however Jake needed money in order to make a purchase of the gift.

Without the money Jake would have been incapable of making the purchase, it was a necessity to perform the act.

It's still more proper to say, "Jake wanted the money in order to purchase the gift." One needs only those things necessary for living healthy lives.

 

[TheGoodNews]

My response is simply this: I don't believe in democratic socialism. Socialism, IMHO, is anathema to the concept of freedom and democracy. It requires government control and ownership of everything...and how can you have freedom with that?

Uh oh, major political fallacy there. Socialism requires workers' control over production otherwise it is not socialism. You're describing statism, which is a common cliché used by the right in the U.S. to mislead the public about what socialism really is.

As for a post-scarcity scenario, if production were to become so efficient (and require little to no "human" labor) and so inexpensive, and its output exceeded the rate of consumption, much of that overflow would be directed into a free commons which the citizens could draw upon at will and manage collaboratively. Private monopolies would be impractical without scarcity, a huge bureaucratic apparatus would be unnecessary as the free commons would be accessible to all and purchases would be pointless. It would be like paying someone in the arctic to make snowballs.

 

[Nightdiamond]

That's not what a need is. He simply wants it for that purpose.

I disagree, you could argue that Jake wanted the gift yes, however Jake needed money in order to make a purchase of the gift.

Without the money Jake would have been incapable of making the purchase, it was a necessity to perform the act.

True, and this flies in the face of what Picard said back in "The Neutral Zone" about there being no want or need among humans.

Jake wanted that card to the point of obsession.

Humans obviously have material needs, but, not having a currency system to trade with only made it worse--Jake more than just needed something--he was practically helpless.

The weird side of utopia.

We're talking about Earth's internal economy. You seem to think it applies to the whole Galaxy. Jake is not buying the card on Earth or from someone from Earth.

This once again brings out the concept that humans are economically isolated on earth. As long as they remain there, most of their needs, both petty and necessary, are provided, at a hand's reach, absolutely free. It's an absolute utopia in the truest sense.

But if the average human leaves earth, enters a place where money is need for food, clothing and shelter or whatever else, they're going to be in trouble.

The possible drawback to that utopia--you have to remain on earth to enjoy it.

I honestly think that episode was designed to show what happens to humans--who don't have a currency-- when they need something that requires money.

Even the poor poverty stricken Bajorans could take care of themselves in cultures that needed money for trading.

 

[ThankYouGeneR]

I'm sticking with the "no money = no paper bills/coins, it's all electronic" system.

It has the advantage of being supported by onscreen evidence, such as the frequent mentions of "Federation credits" and putting things on people's "accounts" and all that.

Interesting. I can see how that could work. Interesting.

 

[T'Girl]

It's still more proper to say, "Jake wanted the money in order to purchase the gift."

Once Jake made the decision to make (or attempt) the purchase, the money became a necessity.

One needs only those things necessary for living healthy lives.

In addition, there is you ability to provide love, caring, joy and delight to your family, this is also a need.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

It's still more proper to say, "Jake wanted the money in order to purchase the gift."

Once Jake made the decision to make (or attempt) the purchase, the money became a necessity.

Being necessary to achieve a certain goal is not the same as being "a necessity."

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

That's not what a need is. He simply wants it for that purpose.

I disagree, you could argue that Jake wanted the gift yes, however Jake needed money in order to make a purchase of the gift.

Without the money Jake would have been incapable of making the purchase, it was a necessity to perform the act.

True, and this flies in the face of what Picard said back in "The Neutral Zone" about there being no want or need among humans.

Jake wanted that card to the point of obsession.

Humans obviously have material needs, but, not having a currency system to trade with only made it worse--Jake more than just needed something--he was practically helpless.

The weird side of utopia.

Yeah, because in your mind, it's much better NOT to live in utopia and have people starve by the millions like we have today?

We must choose our battles, IE we can't win them all, I choose a society where people don't starve and live comfortable lives and you prefer one where people are not inconvenienced when they buy a collector's item from an alien.

To each his own.

We're talking about Earth's internal economy. You seem to think it applies to the whole Galaxy. Jake is not buying the card on Earth or from someone from Earth.

This once again brings out the concept that humans are economically isolated on earth. As long as they remain there, most of their needs, both petty and necessary, are provided, at a hand's reach, absolutely free. It's an absolute utopia in the truest sense.

But if the average human leaves earth, enters a place where money is need for food, clothing and shelter or whatever else, they're going to be in trouble.

The possible drawback to that utopia--you have to remain on earth to enjoy it.

I honestly think that episode was designed to show what happens to humans--who don't have a currency-- when they need something that requires money.

Even the poor poverty stricken Bajorans could take care of themselves in cultures that needed money for trading.

The essential being that the Bajorans ARE poverty stricken and the humans from Earth AREN'T.


I have yet to meet someone who would trade their easy life for the life of someone constantly on the brink of starvation.

It's so much easier to bitch and complain when one's belly is full, isn't it?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Yeah, because in your mind, it's much better NOT to live in utopia and have people starve by the millions like we have today?

Lack of utopia != people starving.

 

[Cyke101]

Yeah, because in your mind, it's much better NOT to live in utopia and have people starve by the millions like we have today?

Lack of utopia != people starving.

Right, but just to chime in a little bit, that point reminds me that there's a bit of room between the two. Current food justice movements seek to address the increasing inaccessibility to proper food (i.e. why low-income neighborhoods don't have grocery stores but dozens of fast food restaurants; why salads cost more than burgers despite the availability of lettuce; how food can be sold and distributed more evenly to benefit both farmers and communities). So it does something about reducing people who are starving or getting bad food education in the here and now, even though we're far, far off from a utopia.

 

[Kobayshi Maru]

Yeah, because in your mind, it's much better NOT to live in utopia and have people starve by the millions like we have today?

Lack of utopia != people starving.

It's where we're at TODAY!