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Another Dominion?

I tend to agree with those saying that a founder cant be assimilated, even if the nanoprobes had some sort of an effect how would they maintain control over a liquid or stone etc, as from what we have seen they are dependent on the physical Borg components being in place.

... as soon as the Borg implants are removed the subject starts to regain there former identity.
 
I tend to agree with those saying that a founder cant be assimilated, even if the nanoprobes had some sort of an effect how would they maintain control over a liquid or stone etc, as from what we have seen they are dependent on the physical Borg components being in place.

... as soon as the Borg implants are removed the subject starts to regain there former identity.

I think you really hit the nail on the head here. Yeah, a ship can be assimilated. Yeah, anything with DNA can be assimilated, but the transient nature of the changelings structure would require the nanoprobes to be able to instantly change their function every time the subject transformed. That seems highly improbable to me.
 
A Changeling cannot literally become stone, or it would cease to be a Changeling and would remain a stone forever. There must be an element of Changelingness remaining in all the states the creature assumes.

Yet, somehow this state can be hidden from the best tricorders. Somehow it remains even when the Changeling becomes fog or fire. So what are we to think? That Changelingness exists out of this universe? Quite possible in the Trek context - mere biological peculiarity would never explain the shapeshifting abilities of the Changelings.

Or is it just that Changelings simply are very good at fooling all sorts of sensors, from tricorders to humanoid eyes and ears? Did Laas ever really become fog or fire (a highly improbable feat, really), or was it just an illusion?

The thing is, Borg assimilation could be aimed at this heart of Changelingness, and if it worked there, it would be immune to the effects of shapeshifting. If Changelingness resides outside the observable physical universe (perhaps in the same place where Odo's mass goes when he becomes a mouse?), then the Borg would have a really hard time assimilating it. But if it's just a mass of Changeling goo in the middle of the object (be it a rock or a mist), camouflaging itself carefully from view, it could be assimilated and slaved to the Collective.

As for the Borg not assimilating starships... Hey, that's exactly what they try to do to Voyager in "Scorpion", and what they do to the transport in "Regeneration". They might not be so simplistic as to use the same techniques for all of their assimilation jobs, of course: perhaps a ship or a Changeling is assimilated using something else besides standard nano-goo from the wrist tubules. But they obviously can and will assimilate non-biological or otherwise exotic structures and entities when they feel like it.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Or is it just that Changelings simply are very good at fooling all sorts of sensors, from tricorders to humanoid eyes and ears? Did Laas ever really become fog or fire (a highly improbable feat, really), or was it just an illusion?

The Changelings don't seem to think so judging by this quote by the Female Changeling. I have no reason to assume the Female is lying to Odo.

"We prefer the Link. But occasionally, it can be interesting
to exist as something else -- a tree perhaps, or a cloud
in the sky."

If we accept that they can become fog or fire then there doesn't seem to be any goo lying around that can be assimilated. As you said this "essence" could go wherever their mass goes.

I have no doubt under certain conditions that a changeling could be assimilated. If the Changeling was sick and was just a pile of goo or if the Borg had something similar to what Garak had to stop them shapeshifting. Under normal circumstances they will really have their work cut out.
 
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I suspect the Borg would want to assimilate them and retain the shape shifting ability, a shape shifting drone would be a formiddable asset for the collective. It may be the Borg are holding off until they work out how to do it.
 
The Changelings don't seem to think so judging by this quote by the Female Changeling. I have no reason to assume the Female is lying to Odo.

"We prefer the Link. But occasionally, it can be interesting
to exist as something else -- a tree perhaps, or a cloud
in the sky."

This is a good point, even though I don't see why we shouldn't assume that a Founder is always lying - especially when making a sales pitch to one not assuredly of their own.

But what does it mean when a Founder becomes a cloud? Does every molecule in her body turn into H2O (or OH- and H3O) that will then float in random patterns, and gradually dissipate? Or does the Founder merely create the impression of a cloud, while still retaining enough of a physical body that its analogue for a nervous system can record and enjoy the experience of imitating a cloud?

Even with the above dialogue, the latter might still be a possibility. Thinking of Changelings as skilled conjurers is easier on the poor brain than thinking of them as fundamentally aphysical beings that merely shape random molecules into puppets that they then animate. After all, physicality has always been important to Odo, and seemed to be so to the experienced adult Founder who ran the war, too. The physical body of a Changeling can be poisoned, like in "The Alternate"; blown to bits, like in "Through the Looking Glass" or "Apocalypse Rising"; or catch a nasty disease. The result is always devastating for the Changeling, and not at all expected if the critter were in fact an aphysical being that only operates physical matter at its leisure.

I suspect the Borg would want to assimilate them and retain the shape shifting ability, a shape shifting drone would be a formiddable asset for the collective.

On the other hand, the Borg seek to spread the perfection they have attained, to donate it to the rest of the universe. Or at least this is what they chant when they go on an assimilation spree. Sooner or later, they would wish to spread the bliss of Collective existence to the Founders as well, even if they gained nothing from it.

On the third hand (which would pose no problem for either the Borg or the Founders), the Borg are also involved in traditional power games. If they decided to intensify their work in the Gamma Quadrant, where the Dominion apparently is a noticeable element, they might see it fit to subjugate the Founders. And learning to assimilate their bodies would be very helpful in that, and thus possibly a priority. The Collective might evolve the ability relatively soon, the rate things are going - it would be good practice for defeating future foes akin to Species 8472.

Timo Saloniemi
 
This is a good point, even though I don't see why we shouldn't assume that a Founder is always lying - especially when making a sales pitch to one not assuredly of their own.

Well she was quite upfront with the whole "Kira's going to die" thing. It's hardly a decent sales pitch because he is a shapeshifter. It might take him longer to learn but it's hardly a trump card.

Even with the above dialogue, the latter might still be a possibility. Thinking of Changelings as skilled conjurers is easier on the poor brain than thinking of them as fundamentally aphysical beings that merely shape random molecules into puppets that they then animate.

It might be easier on the brain but the Founders clearly state that they exist as something. Odo shapeshifts into a mouse to spy on someone. It's shapeshifting. If he creates an illusion of shapeshifting into a mouse and there's no one around to see him well...

After all, physicality has always been important to Odo, and seemed to be so to the experienced adult Founder who ran the war, too.

Isn't more of a communication tool than anything? While it makes practical sense for a Founder to stay as cloud so they can't be harmed, well they can't give orders or link.
 
But physicality seems to be vital for the Founders. If their physical form is attacked, they die. That's quite at odds with the idea that Changelingness would exist independently of the physical body. So if Changelingness remains part of the physical realm, a Founder cannot truly become a cloud of water: there must remain a clump of more complex material somewhere, hidden from the eye and sensor.

The writers didn't really think that through when doing the more exotic bits of what a Changeling can imitate. OTOH, it's a good thing they didn't try to set any artificial limits, because those would in all likelihood have made no sense. Happily, we can excuse all of Odo's odd limitations by referring to his extreme youth and deprived childhood, especially when the writers explicitly use this excuse as well.

Timo Saloniemi
 
But physicality seems to be vital for the Founders. If their physical form is attacked, they die. That's quite at odds with the idea that Changelingness would exist independently of the physical body. So if Changelingness remains part of the physical realm, a Founder cannot truly become a cloud of water: there must remain a clump of more complex material somewhere, hidden from the eye and sensor.

Yeah was thinking that. We've seen that bits of Founders can break of and rejoin (Odo being tortured). So if they become a cloud (or I suspect a cloud like substance) then is their essence spread through that cloud in a very microscopic way? Held in some covalent bond (er please don't kill me science guys!) or the DS9 science equivalent?


Happily, we can excuse all of Odo's odd limitations by referring to his extreme youth and deprived childhood, especially when the writers explicitly use this excuse as well.

Heh, but the things he can do with a communicator really makes you wonder :lol:
 
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