Anomalies in fandom

[Falconer]

I have a bit of an ambiguous query, but, there are two things I have noticed about TOS fandom, let’s say in the 80s but prior to TNG coming out. I want to know if you noticed it, too, or agree, or have any sort of explanation.

1. Disproportionate love for Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov
There is a segment of fandom which always thought these characters got the shaft and should be as much featured as the big three. (I first noticed this in book reviews, which always gave points to authors who featured these characters.)

2. Disproportionate love for Klingons
There is a segment of fandom which seems to think they are as cool and important as our heroes in the Federation/Starfleet. (I first noticed this in gaming—often games would have you play as Klingons.)

Whence these puzzling phenomena? I wouldn’t say I don’t see ANY appeal in these elements, it just seems within TOS itself they are much more minor than they came to be perceived, if that makes sense.

 

[Noname Given]

I have a bit of an ambiguous query, but, there are two things I have noticed about TOS fandom, let’s say in the 80s but prior to TNG coming out. I want to know if you noticed it, too, or agree, or have any sort of explanation.

1. Disproportionate love for Sulu, Uhura, and Chekov
There is a segment of fandom which always thought these characters got the shaft and should be as much featured as the big three. (I first noticed this in book reviews, which always gave points to authors who featured these characters.)

2. Disproportionate love for Klingons
There is a segment of fandom which seems to think they are as cool and important as our heroes in the Federation/Starfleet. (I first noticed this in gaming—often games would have you play as Klingons.)

Whence these puzzling phenomena? I wouldn’t say I don’t see ANY appeal in these elements, it just seems within TOS itself they are much more minor than they came to be perceived, if that makes sense.

In 1. you left out Scotty. The 'fab four' became more loved because they tended to do more Star Trek Conventions that Shatner, Nimoy and Kelly in the old days. It's also when the first stories of "Evil/Bad Shatner..." started making the rounds too. (Personally, I tought that was probably more due to they wanted interesting stories for their convention stage appearances. I have no doubt Shatner did things on set to make sure Kirk was the center of attention, but he WAS the lead/star of the show and in practically every scene in most scripts. Th other four were cast extras (much in the same vein of similar contemporary shows in the 60ies like "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea" who also had recurring crew extras.)

My point? Shatener was probably on the set for a 5-6 days of filming a week, where most times any of those 4 were probably working 1 - 2 days at most a week, They're all actors, and ANY actor would love more to do - but again, the (at the start) two stars were:

William Shatner (Lead)
Leonard Nimoy (Co-Star)
and about half way through Season One
DeForrest Kelly (Co-Star)

The other 4 were window dressing, who after the show becaume more popular, made a living of going to conventionns and playing up their roles in the show.

I say 'playing up' because hey: does anyone hate "The Doomsday Machine" because Lt. Uhuar isn't the Comm officer on the Bridge for that episode? No. It's still one of the top TOS fan favorite episodes despite Nichelle Nichols not being in a single frame.

So, yeah, I thionk they became more loved by the fans because they (through conventions) cultivated a relationship with and did make money from fans (with autograph signings, etc.) by going to conventions regularly.

BOTH Shatner and Nimoy (and post Star Trek Nimoy with more visible success at first) tried to keep their actual acting film and TV careers going. Nimoy took a supporting role on Mission Impossible, while Shatner would do anything he could get from small documentaries to TV commercials and made for TV movies, etc.

As for the Klingons (and Romulans) - it doesn't matter if it's TOS or the TNG era. There were ALWAYS a small hardcore group of fandom who identified with and felt these species and characters got a bad/undeserved 'rap'; and were more interested in having stories about them and building out their respective cultures more.

I've been a fan since 1969 (at age 6) - started getting more directly invoved in fandom in the late 1970ies and early 1980ies when the feature films hit - and I would say what you dewscribe above was any more or less prevalent then it has been through the 90ies and early 2000's as it is today.

The only difference with the TNG era was that - from the start they decided to play up the "It's a ensemble cast..." aspect because they didn't have a bigger name star in the lead (Example - for TNG I'd say in many eyes Lavar Burton (from ROOTS) was a bigger name in the U.S. audiences eyes then say Patrick Stewart back in 1987. Same with all the Berman era series - the ensemble of small A to B list and genre actors was made the 'draw' - along with the fact that it was Star Trek <--- which was (and still in now) a draw for some folks regardless of who is cast.

 

[FormerLurker]

The only difference with the TNG era was that - from the start they decided to play up the "It's a ensemble cast..." aspect because they didn't have a bigger name star in the lead (Example - for TNG I'd say in many eyes Lavar Burton (from ROOTS) was a bigger name in the U.S. audiences eyes then say Patrick Stewart back in 1987. Same with all the Berman era series - the ensemble of small A to B list and genre actors was made the 'draw' - along with the fact that it was Star Trek <--- which was (and still in now) a draw for some folks regardless of who is cast.

It's been my understanding that as of the TNG era, the ensemble cast was all but required. The 'big four' raised a stink about how they were disrespected by Shatner especially, but by Nimoy and Kelley to some extent, because they weren't lead billed (their names weren't in the opening credits). GR went out of his way to prevent this, starting as early as TMP, by making sure all of his regulars and recurrings were lead billed. Patrick Stewart not being as well known as LeVar Burton had little to nothing to do with it. And anyway, as Patrick Stewart said at his first convention, "When I was cast, I had only been in four films. Of course three of them were Excalibur, Lifeforce and Dune."

 

[Ssosmcin]

I thought 70's fandom was fun and just loved anything and anyone to do with the series. I remember so many articles about how fans loved certain actors who played one-shot characters, many from the third season (like Gem and Surak) and found it odd later to hear so much venom about that year.

On one hand, I preferred those days - the love of the series overall, the joy in discussing even the smallest characters in the most under appreciated episodes and being genuinely thrilled to have someone to talk to about it.

On the other, I really hated how everydamnednewscifishow had to be compared to Star Trek. Space:1999 in particular, but also Planet of the Apes and Logan's Run...And how Starlog would run a "What Did They Think of Star Trek?" spread with famous people saying how they loved it. There was room in my heart for other shows, but in the 70's, man....there was some serious 'tude.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

In 1. you left out Scotty. The 'fab four' became more loved because they tended to do more Star Trek Conventions that Shatner, Nimoy and Kelly in the old days.

That's a huge part of it. The four supporting actors were the ones you could actually meet at conventions, especially in province towns (meaning not L.A., Chicago, or NYC). Fans were excited to meet anyone from the show, and thus cheered like crazy. This went straight to the supporting actors' heads, and they began to think they were the actual stars of Star Trek.

Fans went along with that to keep the feel-good interactions coming.

Then the supporting cast "realized" that if they were the actual stars, they should have had more dialogue. Someone must be to blame. Shatner asserting his power on the set must therefore be seen as an act of villainy. Now, if TOS were filmed under today's customs, Shatner would have had a Producer credit in his contract. He was a part-owner of the show. Of course he had a lot of say in how scenes were shot. But if George Takei was the real star (ha ha), then Shatner was a monster!

 

[NCC-73515]

2. Disproportionate love for Klingons
There is a segment of fandom which seems to think they are as cool and important as our heroes in the Federation/Starfleet. (I first noticed this in gaming—often games would have you play as Klingons.)

There are only 3 Klingon-perspective games: Klingon, Klingon Honor Guard, and Klingon Academy.
Most games are Starfleet-perspective only, and some offer multiple powers including Romulans, Cardassians, or Borg (like Armada, SFC, BOTF, New Worlds).

 

[Kor]

There are only 3 Klingon-perspective games: Klingon, Klingon Honor Guard, and Klingon Academy.
Most games are Starfleet-perspective only, and some offer multiple powers including Romulans, Cardassians, or Borg (like Armada, SFC, BOTF, New Worlds).

I think we need to look at the gaming scene of the 1980s period that OP refers to. This would have been gaming of the tangible tabletop variety, such as Star Fleet Battles, Federation & Empire, and the stuff from West End Games.

Kor

 

[Tenacity]

The 'big four' raised a stink about how they were disrespected by Shatner especially

Saw a interview with Shatner where he insisted that during the run of TOS he had no idea what George Takei name was, and didn't know it for years after.

 

[FormerLurker]

Saw a interview with Shatner where he insisted that during the run of TOS he had no idea what George Takei name was, and didn't know it for years after.

Sounds more like casual arrogant elitism than active dissing. Which the ego-monster that Shatner was at the time would have been guilty of in spades. Doesn't make Shatner look much better, but being callous is very different from being malicious.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Sounds more like casual arrogant elitism than active dissing. Which the ego-monster that Shatner was at the time would have been guilty of in spades. Doesn't make Shatner look much better, but being callous is very different from being malicious.

Ooorrrr it was his way of responding to the constant, unceasing barrage of bullshit from Takei....

 

[ChallengerHK]

I'll throw in my two cents regarding the popularity of the "lesser" characters.

I started going to cons in 1976. At first, these were Trek cons. They were advertised as such, and they made good on the claim, with, say, 90-95% of programming being Trek-oriented.

It wasn't too long, maybe a couple of years, until I started seeing a lot of things turning up that weren't strictly Trek, or weren't Trek at all. Doctor Who was the first thing I noticed, followed by a lot of other Brit material and then a lot of anime. Lost in Space became big. Whenever I'd ask people about these interests, they were (inexplicably, since they were at what was nominally a Trek con) very dismissive of Trek. They made if clear that they had found something they thought was superior. (The most inexplicable to me came when I listed to a small group discussing Battle of the Planets.)

What I determined after talking to these folks for a few years was that they were looking for a differentiator for themselves. Trek was cool enough when it was a relatively small group supporting it, but they wanted to set themselves apart from the masses once the popularity started to soar.

I never had these discussions surrounding the Trek characters, but, looking back, I could easily see one of them saying "Yeah, Kirk is cool and all, but it's Sulu that really makes things happen."

 

[Tenacity]

Thing is, from Shatner's perspective, Takei was just some guy who got a few lines per episode, and could have been (and was) easily replace if unavailible.

 

[Ssosmcin]

Bill Shatner was the lead in a TV series that was shot in 5-7 days. He was in the majority of the scenes. He worked with the guest stars of the week as well as Nimoy for most of those days and to a slightly less extent, Kelley (depending on the point in the series). Takei worked, what? One or two days a week and in many episodes, not in the same scenes. Let’s not forget the huge number of episodes the man missed.

Say you’re the senior attorney at a law firm and there’s this part timer who comes in and does office work. You run into him in the kitchen or in the corridors and exchange greetings. You probably know the guy’s name, but how much does that person really impact your day? Does he even register?

Takei has retroactively complained that Shatner didn’t remember him after they ran into each other shortly after shooting the pilot. How many scenes did they share? Two?

You can apply this to most of them, but Nichelle at least had some meaningful scenes with him. And he and Doohan seemed to get along in the beginning. Shatner had no trouble breaking him up in behind the scenes footage and even the second season saw considerable goofing. Either Doohan hid it well or he didn’t develop this intense hatred until the convention circuit.

Nichelle seems to be pretty reasonable and complimentary toward Shatner and even Koenig says he liked the man as a person, but wasn’t comfortable working with him. But Takei, man. It started as fun but now it's well past its freshness date and I've gotten to the point where I can barely listen to him anymore. Well done, George.

 

[Vger23]

It's been my understanding that as of the TNG era, the ensemble cast was all but required. The 'big four' raised a stink about how they were disrespected by Shatner especially, but by Nimoy and Kelley to some extent, because they weren't lead billed (their names weren't in the opening credits). GR went out of his way to prevent this, starting as early as TMP, by making sure all of his regulars and recurrings were lead billed.

Where do you get this understanding from? Seems like a lot of supposition, and I've never personally heard this angle before.

Either Doohan hid it well or he didn’t develop this intense hatred until the convention circuit.

Seeing the disease first-hand myself, one wonders whether part of Doohan's disdain for Shatner originates from his Alzheimer's disease. It's a cruel disease, and maybe it had an impact on his memories and attitudes later in life as it started to take hold.

 

[Kor]

I remember hearing that when STV:TFF was in production, Doohan talked about how great it was to work with Shatner, but after the movie came out, that all changed.

Kor

 

[Tenacity]

All the actors, including the ones who "hate" Shatner, agreed that he was a good director.

As story writer though ...

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

All the actors, including the ones who "hate" Shatner, agreed that he was a good director.

Yep.

Whatever baggage might have existed between Shatner and his costars as actors, definitely did not apply when he was their director.

The general thrust of the gist is that Shat was a very good director, and was courteous and professional at all times to the rest of the cast (even going out of his way to give as much screen time to all of them as he could), because he was unquestionably in charge. He didn't have anything to prove.

And, despite constant demands from TPTB to complete the film on time, Shat didn't allow any of that pressure to seep onto the set. He kept things lively and interesting.

 

[Phaser Two]

The anti-Shatner hatred is really sad. To a certain extent (applying Occam's Razor) it's most likely just rooted in basic jealousy; he was the star, and these others weren't. I blame (with a heavy heart) Doohan and Takei. Nichols was never as vocal about it and Koenig seemed to be at least affable enough about it to speak with Shatner on a few occasions (including at least one filmed interview) about it, even if he wasn't really able to articulate Shatner's supposedly monstrous conduct very well during the filmed interview I saw.

For my part I believe that Shatner probably did act with some degree of ego while on the set - although curiously very few if any non-regular guest stars, including some big names like Joan Collins, have ever really said so to my knowledge - and Doohan/Takei and the others just got mildly upset about it. I actually doubt it made much of a difference to them at the time. But when they hit the convention circuit, all of a sudden it was "hip" to bash Shatner and that gave them some material.

This got all the more inexplicable after the movies started. By this point, I don't think anyone (except maybe Nimoy) was arguing that Shatner was behaving as anything but a gentleman, and so these folks would come together, make six movies together with Shatner (and in the case of Doohan and Koenig, seven), and then . . . go right back to bashing him. One of the saddest things I think I really ever read about Star Trek was when, in one of Shatner's books, he wrote about Doohan saying something like "Jimmy, if you'd like to have a beer sometime," and apparently Doohan never followed up or responded in any way. Just so sad. The Takei thing, with the non-invitation to the wedding and other similar stuff, is even more bizarre. I wish Shatner and Takei would sit down and talk out their differences. If that filmed interview with Koenig is any indication, Shatner would be more than happy to do so and do most of the listening.

 

[Roundabout]

I would guess that for Kirk's last ever scene (in GEN), the last thing that Shatner would want to remind fans of, is Takei (and their feud).

I find it ironic that Kirk's last words are "oh my", which is Takei's catchphrase. I am sure it was just a quirky coincidence.

I didn't think anything of Kirk's last words for the longest of time. But nowadays whenever I hear Kirk's last words, I can't help but think that he was channeling Takei, just kidding. Seriously, I would like to think that Kirk's "oh my" was an unintentional homage to Takei.

 

[StarCruiser]

I think we need to look at the gaming scene of the 1980s period that OP refers to. This would have been gaming of the tangible tabletop variety, such as Star Fleet Battles, Federation & Empire, and the stuff from West End Games.

Kor

This would be correct but, the reason why Klingons got a fair bit more "play time" in some games was simple - Klingons are fun (just like Pirates are fun)...