Just make sure you don't hit your head on it!
Anomalies in fandom
- Thread starter Falconer
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Just wanted to chime in and say that I do remember the time when everything that came after Star Trek the Original Series was way cooler than Star Trek! Space 1999 was cooler Battlestar Galactica was cooler Buck Rogers was cooler everything was cooler than Star Trek because Star Trek was 1st and Star Trek was popular
I remember when I first got into Star Trek TNG and for a time wasn't as interested in TOS anymore! Maybe it was the fresh approach, maybe it was The Borg, maybe it was the Klingon/Romulan troubles? But after a while I was more for TOS again and years later I still haven't seen the final two seasons of TNG!!! 
JB
JB
Wow. The only shows I thought were "cooler" (or at least "as cool") as TOS were the 1st season of Babylon 5, which went on to disappoint me, and The Expanse, which has yet to disappoint me. The beginning of the new BSG was promising, too...that went downhill quickly.
I watched the original BSG when it came out, contemporaneously with Trek, and I saw the Star Wars movies a little after (I was born in 1974). I also saw Buck Rogers when it came out. While I enjoyed all of them (BSG being an awfully guilty pleasure, Star Wars was and is my least favorite of the franchises), they didn't hold a candle to TOS.
And I saw the TOS Movie #1 four times in a row and later enjoyed TWOK before I realized just how dumb a movie it was, but the Trek movies were never as cool as original Trek.
I watched the original BSG when it came out, contemporaneously with Trek, and I saw the Star Wars movies a little after (I was born in 1974). I also saw Buck Rogers when it came out. While I enjoyed all of them (BSG being an awfully guilty pleasure, Star Wars was and is my least favorite of the franchises), they didn't hold a candle to TOS.
And I saw the TOS Movie #1 four times in a row and later enjoyed TWOK before I realized just how dumb a movie it was, but the Trek movies were never as cool as original Trek.
Blake's 7 was pretty cool.
Oh yes! Absolutely. Lower production values but great setting, stories, and characters.
I'm so delighted to find someone else who thinks so!
Wrath of Khan is a movie that is greater than the sum of its parts but the story holds up really poorly to close examination. I much prefer the story and implementation of TMP but the core story of Kirk getting old, Spock's death, and the awesome score alongside the last third of the movie all elevate TWoK above its hokey story.
Yeah, in brass tacks TWOK is a purely functional story, it fits some interesting themes around what is a very basic structure designed to make those themes feel knitted together. Close examination shows those couple of loose threads, but Meyer was very clever by using his literary allusions etc to disguise what is a purely functional story. It's a movie with substance *and* style, but not 'too much' of either that it becomes unbalanced. The last time I gave them all a watch through I found TMP a much more interesting character study, but I was afraid that may have been coming from over-familiarity with TWOK. I do agree that offhand I could cite at least 5 TOS episodes whose premise I find more compelling than TWOK, possibly even more.
And Khan as a villain is very basic. Even back in 'Space Seed'. The only things that elevate him are Ricardo's performance, and the Captain Ahab thing, orchestrating a personal vendetta with the heroes that makes him feel a lot more dangerous than he really is.
I look at some of the films as missed opportunities for the secondary characters to do stuff. Like Star Trek III, Uhura disappears for half the film and meanwhile we're watching David, fake-Saavik and fake-Spock run around a soundstage. I think David being on Genesis with someone like Chekov to give them meatier roles could have been cool, especially with what was done to Chekov personally, the crew of the Reliant and Captain Terrell. Meanwhile Sulu could have been replaced Styles and Styles replaced Morrow, so Sulu is the one tasked to chase Kirk down, with Scotty as his foil and still Excelsior saboteur. Then you're left with Kirk, McCoy, Sulu, Uhura and Saavik on the Enterprise herself.
I think a big part of the difference we see in TWOK is it's a movie and not a show. When Star Trek got forced into the movie world they lost the ability to a lot of things you can do with a show.
So you have a really interesting premise and really want to make it a show but can't quite get all of the problems out of it and it's mess, you've got another episode next week and the world isn't over.
You make a movie like that... The world may very well be over.
Imagine if Star Trek got some kind of green light to make a feature and they used The Alternative Factor?
So they needed to make good movies that unfortunately lost a lot of what made Star Trek Star Trek.
In 6 movies, how many new worlds did we see? How many new civilizations?
And 2, 3, 4 really were a self absorbed little trilogy that started somewhat ok with TWOK, not an exploration but it was something a Starship would certainly be expected to do, stop a rogue Starship, but then it's the "let's resurrect Spock show" next movie and then the "let's get the gang back and in the clear with a lot of silliness" 4 is one in particular a good "movie" but it's terrible Star Trek. No where near as bad as Insurrection but
And 4 or 5 or all 6 (depending on how you define the expression) have a "bad guy". There were plenty of good antagonists in Star Trek episodes but many had none, just circumstances resulting from exploring new things and leading into action that wasn't necessarily "action" in the movie sense of the word. It's very arguable if the whale turd/dingleberry and V'ger were bad guys, I think the turd does, but only because of it's callous disregard for sentient/sapient life as it turds across the galaxy and almost destroys Terra because it didn't get the hear the end of the last episode of "Single Femaie Whale Lawyer".
So you have a really interesting premise and really want to make it a show but can't quite get all of the problems out of it and it's mess, you've got another episode next week and the world isn't over.
You make a movie like that... The world may very well be over.
Imagine if Star Trek got some kind of green light to make a feature and they used The Alternative Factor?
So they needed to make good movies that unfortunately lost a lot of what made Star Trek Star Trek.
In 6 movies, how many new worlds did we see? How many new civilizations?
And 2, 3, 4 really were a self absorbed little trilogy that started somewhat ok with TWOK, not an exploration but it was something a Starship would certainly be expected to do, stop a rogue Starship, but then it's the "let's resurrect Spock show" next movie and then the "let's get the gang back and in the clear with a lot of silliness" 4 is one in particular a good "movie" but it's terrible Star Trek. No where near as bad as Insurrection but
And 4 or 5 or all 6 (depending on how you define the expression) have a "bad guy". There were plenty of good antagonists in Star Trek episodes but many had none, just circumstances resulting from exploring new things and leading into action that wasn't necessarily "action" in the movie sense of the word. It's very arguable if the whale turd/dingleberry and V'ger were bad guys, I think the turd does, but only because of it's callous disregard for sentient/sapient life as it turds across the galaxy and almost destroys Terra because it didn't get the hear the end of the last episode of "Single Femaie Whale Lawyer".
Preston was still alive when Scotty took him to the Bridge. Maybe Scotty knew there was no hope.
I agree, in Star Trek II & VI, Chekov and Sulu branched out effectively and Uhura's scene in III was one of her best in the franchise. Uhura using high tech espionage to stay ahead of Starfleet security could have been awesome.
They could have used far more imagination. Rand could have been Morrow's assistant in III and could have done a little something to buy them a few seconds to escape or even intervened to help Uhura. Chapel could have been up front with Cartwright in IV. They could have explored Saavik's dual heritage in V, as a counterpoint to Spock's.
Unfortunately Grace Lee Whitney and Janice Rand were mostly a complete afterthought in the ST films.
- She actually got the chance to reprise Rand in ST:TMP because Deforest Kelly saw her on the unemployment line and mentioned that fans still asked about her, so she got the small scene in ST:TMP started doing conventions/
- For STIII:TSFS It was a last-minute favor done by Leonard Nimoy (The Director), and filming of the Spacedock Cafeteria scene where she's looking at the 1701 as it docks was at ILM, after principal photography for STIII:TSFS had ended.
I think the movies would have felt more natural if they had been understood to star Shatner, Nimoy, and Kelley, and if they had only included other TOS cast members in a more scattershot manner. I sort of get the desire to include them for window dressing, but maybe they could have kept the actual window dressing (i.e., sets and costumes).
Barrett had some nice scenes in TMP.
Koenig and Montalban in TWoK, that worked.
Takei in TUC, sure!
I think TSfS’s inclusion of Doohan, Koenig, and Takei worked great, but imagine how much more effective it would have been if it were not taken for granted that you would see them in any given movie. Basically they should all have been Captains and been assembled for that adventure as a sort of A-Team.
Barrett had some nice scenes in TMP.
Koenig and Montalban in TWoK, that worked.
Takei in TUC, sure!
I think TSfS’s inclusion of Doohan, Koenig, and Takei worked great, but imagine how much more effective it would have been if it were not taken for granted that you would see them in any given movie. Basically they should all have been Captains and been assembled for that adventure as a sort of A-Team.
Some versions of WOK show Preston's death later in sick bay, so he is definitely still alive on the bridge in those versions.
All versions do. I've never seen one with his death omitted. Although you could edit the kid out altogether for all the impact it had on Scotty after his big scene.
In fact, Grace was slated to be a recurring guest character in Phsse II so her inclusion in TMP was intentional. Her part in the original script was a cameo on the bridge and it looks like she was only employed for a few weeks shooting given that she is absent from the second half of the movie, so always intended to be a small role, although we might wonder if she might have replaced Ilia if Marcy Lafferty hadn't rocked up.
Nimoy certainly asked for Majel and Grace to appear in STIV but it's curious that they were not allowed to engage in the story at all. Chapel's one scene alone with Sarek was cut, minor, but I would have preferred to see it.
I think NuTrek worked harder to include the wider cast, although not always organically, as the ludicrous appointment of junior navigator Pavel Chekov, who graduated from Starfleet a year ago as chief engineer on a starship.
I think one of the reasons I like the stealing of the Enterprise so much is because everyone gets to have fun with it. From that point on though, it becomes all about Kirk, not that I mind that so much in STIII. I think it's just Uhura who loses out in STIV.
I have to say, I thought Grace's cameo in STIII was awesome. By far my favourite cameo.
I think the cast does get to have some fun in all the movies. Out of the Big 7 I think it is less quantity and more quality/agency that is a bit too limited. Maybe the issue is that they don't get enough interaction with the big 3 other than yes sir / no sir.
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