Ann Hornaday on the Isla Vista tragedy

[Shaka Zulu]

Basically put, Ann Hornaday, the film critic for The Washington Post blames the movie industry, in particular the films of Judd Apatow and the movie Neighbors for what happened, implying that the manifesto by Elliot Rodger was influenced by watching movies like Apatow's in the first place:

How many students watch outsized frat-boy fantasies like "Neighbors" and feel, as [the shooter Elliot] Rodger did, unjustly shut out of college life that should be full of "sex and fun and pleasure"? How many men, raised on a steady diet of Judd Apatow comedies in which the schlubby arrested adolescent always gets the girl, find that those happy endings constantly elude them and conclude, "It's not fair"?

Movies may not reflect reality, but they powerfully condition what we desire, expect and feel we deserve from it. The myths that movies have been selling us become even more palpable at a time when spectators become their own auteurs and stars on YouTube, Instagram and Vine. If our cinematic grammar is one of violence, sexual conquest and macho swagger — thanks to male studio executives who green-light projects according to their own pathetic predilections — no one should be surprised when those impulses take luridly literal form in the culture at large.

Part of what makes cinema so potent is the way even its most outlandish characters and narratives burrow into and fuse with our own stories and identities. When the dominant medium of our age — both as art form and industrial practice — is in the hands of one gender, what may start out as harmless escapist fantasies can, through repetition and amplification, become distortions and dangerous lies.

Personally, I think that the guy was insane, and needed to be sent to a mental institution, but I don't have all of the answers-what does anybody else think about this? Is she right that we need more women making movies in order to correct this imbalance and to stop incidents like this from happening?

'In a final videotaped message, a sad reflection of the sexist stories we so often see on screen'-Ann Hornaday on the Isla Vista tragedy

(Of course, Apatow and Rogen have responded.)

 

[scotpens]

This old schtick gets really, really tired. Blame heavy metal music for teen suicide. Blame pornography for rape. Blame juvenile delinquency on comic books.

Sick, fucked-up people are going to do sick, fucked-up things. Period, full stop, end of story.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I posted the same story in TNZ. I think she makes valid points about the sexism in Hollywood, how women and men are often portrayed and behave onscreen, and how we need more women in directorial and studio upper management positions.

Her mistake IMO came when she tried to link that valid point with the Elliot Rodger rampage which had no connection to it whatsoever. The guy was mentally ill, antisocial, misogynist, entitled, violent, and narcissistic in the extreme, and he would have been that way regardless of what movies he's seen.

It's completely understandable that Rogen and Apatow would feel unfairly attacked by their projects being baselessly linked to this rampage (the killer never mentioned anything about their movies, so the connection is rather out of left field other than her very vague and tenuous linking of the alleged attitudes present in the films to that of the killer), whereas if it had been a simple commentary on those aspects of the films but divorced from any connection to the shootings/stabbings/rammings, there might have been a chance for a more thoughtful dialogue on the subject.

 

[VORTEX8472]

I posted the same story in TNZ. I think she makes valid points about the sexism in Hollywood, how women and men are often portrayed and behave onscreen, and how we need more women in directorial and studio upper management positions.

Her mistake IMO came when she tried to link that valid point with the Elliot Rodger rampage which had no connection to it whatsoever. The guy was mentally ill, antisocial, misogynist, entitled, violent, and narcissistic in the extreme, and he would have been that way regardless of what movies he's seen.

It's completely understandable that Rogen and Apatow would feel unfairly attacked by their projects being baselessly linked to this rampage (the killer never mentioned anything about their movies, so the connection is rather out of left field other than her very vague and tenuous linking of the alleged attitudes present in the films to that of the killer), whereas if it had been a simple commentary on those aspects of the films but divorced from any connection to the shootings/stabbings/rammings, there might have been a chance for a more thoughtful dialogue on the subject.

I agree with your assessment of the situation, IMO Elliot was in need of serious psychological intervention; as indicated by his parents apparent struggle to find him in the last few hours leading to the tragedy. I have a feeling he may have been grossly neglected by both parents and perhaps showed signs of instability far before these terrible events. I hope people will learn that we all must do our part to reach out to each other and not allow this type of hateful culture to take over the minds of some desperate individuals.

I pray for the victims families as they've lost the most in this and deserve some answers.

 

[dansigal]

This old schtick gets really, really tired. Blame heavy metal music for teen suicide. Blame pornography for rape. Blame juvenile delinquency on comic books.

Sick, fucked-up people are going to do sick, fucked-up things. Period, full stop, end of story.

Ugh, this is the worst defeatist type response there is.

First, the OP is grossly mischaracterizing what the article is saying, which in itself is a disservice to the author. No where does she "blame" the entertainment industry for what happened in Isla Vista, she's merely saying that it's part of the equation. Ms. Hornaday's point is this: in addition to the obvious failures to address the persons (and many other persons) mental illness problems and to our country's shitty gun control laws, ANOTHER contributing factor was the serious misogyny problem that we have in this country. It's a problem that affects many many women, especially on college campuses, in many serious ways. One contributing factor to the misogyny problem in the entertainment industry and it's male domination and frat boy type movies where it always seems like the guy is entitled to get the girl. Now Ms. Hornaday is a critic. She's not qualified to right about mental health policy or things like that. But she does watch and analyze movies for a living, so this her contribution to the conversation. The conversation of why this happened and what we can do better to continue to try to prevent it from happening again is conversation worth having. It's a complex conversation, and this one point is a point worth making.

However, your response is essentially that there shouldn't even be a conversation. Let's just write off a well thought out and potentially useful contribution to the conversation because sick people are going to do sick things so why even bother trying to get to bottom of why and do something to prevent from happening in the future

 

[Shaka Zulu]

^Read what Locutus Of Bored said, and then get back to me and the other commenters.

Also, if Ms. Hornaday wants to see 'better movies' then the Apatow movies that have her ire, than she and other women of means have to be the change that they wants to see on the big screen (as Gandhi would have put it) and start writing/making movies that have better representation of women and relationships on the screen.

 

[dansigal]

Yeah, I read them. I'm ok with Locutus of Bored's response and here's why: It's perfectly ok to disagree with Ms. Hornaday's point she's trying to make. What is not ok, is just writing off entirely by saying we shouldn't even be having the conversation because people are going to do what they are going to do. It's also not ok to mis-characterize what Ms. Hornaday was saying as "blaming" any one thing for what happened. She was just saying here's a possible contributing factor that we should discuss.

As for Locutus of Bored's comments, I would disagree with his below statement:

Her mistake IMO came when she tried to link that valid point with the Elliot Rodger rampage which had no connection to it whatsoever. The guy was mentally ill, antisocial, misogynist, entitled, violent, and narcissistic in the extreme, and he would have been that way regardless of what movies he's seen.

Locutus is right, that guy was all those things, and they all played a role in what happened. But what Ms. Hornaday is saying is that "misogynist" part, which Locutus includes, people aren't born with that, that comes from somewhere. One place where it may have come from, is the entertainment industry.

And yes, I also agree that it's understandable that Apatow's and Rogen's would be to get defensive about their work being associated in anyway with what happened at Isla Vista. That being said, Apatow would have been better off responding by pointing out the work he's done with Girls and The 40 Year Virgin, and that in general, Ms. Hornaday may have a point regarding the male domination in the industry and the negative effects that may have.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

That's a fair point.

 

[Forbin]

Apart from totally banning guns, which I know a lot of people would love, I don't see what further gun control laws would have worked here. CA has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. Unfortunately this guy simply hadn't done anything wrong enough to get on the background check radar before he bought them.

 

[dansigal]

Apart from totally banning guns, which I know a lot of people would love, I don't see what further gun control laws would have worked here. CA has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. Unfortunately this guy simply hadn't done anything wrong enough to get on the background check radar before he bought them.

I'll be honest, I don't know the background of where these particular guns came from. But assuming he purchased them himself legally, how about psychiatric evaluations?

 

[Locutus of Bored]

Apart from totally banning guns, which I know a lot of people would love, I don't see what further gun control laws would have worked here. CA has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. Unfortunately this guy simply hadn't done anything wrong enough to get on the background check radar before he bought them.

I'll be honest, I don't know the background of where these particular guns came from. But assuming he purchased them himself legally, how about psychiatric evaluations?

He was seeing three separate therapists (because his parents were concerned about his behavior) who apparently didn't see this coming, although therapist is a rather vague and unofficial term which can leave a lot of variation in their qualifications. He was visited by six police officers a few months earlier after his mother saw alarming YouTube videos (though not the ones talking about the rampage, which he only uploaded right before it started) which made her think he might be a danger to himself. The police said he was personable and seemed to be okay, because even people with severe mental illness can often focus themselves enough to appear balanced for a short term when needed. So unless you have people going through a battery of long duration mental examinations over a long period of time, which is not practical, some people are going to slip through the cracks.

Which is not saying that more couldn't have been done in the Rodger case, it's just saying that I think it's still possible the guy could have passed even with those steps in place.

 

[dansigal]

Now we're getting into the nitty gritty of this specific case and the minutia of gun control law and that's a sure fire way to go down the rabbit hole, but i'll just say from a personal opinion, i have ZERO problem with a law that says if you're seeing three separate therapists then you aren't allowed to buy a tool that has no purpose other than to kill other living things. Or at least require each of those therapists to sign off and say they don't see a problem with it.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

I wasn't arguing gun control issues with you (which really have nothing to do with the article in the OP, but you guys were talking about it), just telling you the specifics in this case.

 

[dansigal]

Fair point also. And I only originally mentioned gun control in passing in the context of, entertainment industry isn't solely what's to blame for what happened, not sure either how the topic got expanded

 

[Vendikarr]

This old schtick gets really, really tired. Blame heavy metal music for teen suicide. Blame pornography for rape. Blame juvenile delinquency on comic books.

Sick, fucked-up people are going to do sick, fucked-up things. Period, full stop, end of story.

It's an effort to place blame where it doesn't belong. This guy was mentally ill and the people in his life, like his parents, friends and family have failed him..

But who wants to think they are to blame? Blame it on the stuff that millions of people listen to, read or watch. We aren't all ticking bombs.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

This guy was mentally ill and the people in his life, like his parents, friends and family have failed him.

I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment either. It's seemed pretty clear that his parents were aware of his behavioral issues and tried to get him help for it on multiple occasions, like with the three therapists I mentioned above. The mother contacted police when she saw earlier videos suggesting he might be a danger to himself. As soon as she saw the latest YouTube videos talking about the rampage and simultaneous heard about the shootings in Isla Vista, she immediately tried to rush to the scene to stop him, so there was no denial on her part.

The parents provided for him well and cared for him, his stepmother tried to set limits for him to deal with his sense of entitlement (which he resented).

The guy had a six-year-old little brother who loved him, and all he could think about was how the kid was going to grow up to be a sexual rival and surpass him in life, so he resented the little kid.

The guy was profoundly fucked up, but if you keep much of that to yourself and can pass for being healthy when confronted (as he did with police) it's not always easy to spot the signs that you've transitioned from more passive expressions of mental illness into suicide and/or violence against others.

 

[the G-man]

There are a lot of good points in this thread. It seems to me that Hornaday's biggest mistake was singling out Apatow and Rogan who, while they may make "gross out" films, are actually fairly respectful towards women in those movies, especially compared to a lot of the Hollywood output.

 

[the G-man]

This guy was mentally ill and the people in his life, like his parents, friends and family have failed him.

I don't think that's an entirely fair assessment either. It's seemed pretty clear that his parents were aware of his behavioral issues and tried to get him help for it on multiple occasions, like with the three therapists I mentioned above. The mother contacted police when she saw earlier videos suggesting he might be a danger to himself. As soon as she saw the latest YouTube videos talking about the rampage and simultaneous heard about the shootings in Isla Vista, she immediately tried to rush to the scene to stop him, so there was no denial on her part.

The parents provided for him well and cared for him, his stepmother tried to set limits for him to deal with his sense of entitlement (which he resented).

The guy had a six-year-old little brother who loved him, and all he could think about was how the kid was going to grow up to be a sexual rival and surpass him in life, so he resented the little kid.

The guy was profoundly fucked up, but if you keep much of that to yourself and can pass for being healthy when confronted (as he did with police) it's not always easy to spot the signs that you've transitioned from more passive expressions of mental illness into suicide and/or violence against others.

While I might quibble with how entitled his family apparently kept him (given that BMer he was driving), otherwise, I agree.

The mental health system has been a disaster in this country since probably the late 70s. And its something for which both liberals and conservatives deserve blame: liberals for putting people on the street in the name of civil liberties and conservatives for cutting funding for MH services. Each side contributed to a perfect storm of inadequately treated mental health issues.

 

[Forbin]

Apart from totally banning guns, which I know a lot of people would love, I don't see what further gun control laws would have worked here. CA has some of the strictest gun laws in the country. Unfortunately this guy simply hadn't done anything wrong enough to get on the background check radar before he bought them.

I'll be honest, I don't know the background of where these particular guns came from. But assuming he purchased them himself legally, how about psychiatric evaluations?

Fine by me to a certain extent. In NJ, whenever we apply for a pistol purchase permit, we also sign a consent form for the state police to investigate our mental health records. Though we don't have to actually sit down with a psychiatrist, which I would certainly object to personally. I guess that means we have to have actually done something to be on the record for a warning flag to pop up.

Rodgers did indeed buy his pistols legally, btw, following CA's laws.

 

[Miss Chicken]

I don't think that his parents are the ones to blame him for feeling entitled.

They don't seem to have spoiled him. They weren't wealthy, despite what some people seem to think. The mother earns about $40,000 a year and the father income is variable and he has been greatly in debt. If you look at his mainifesto you can tell his parents didn't spend an outrageous amount on him. When he started to get interested in skateboarding his parents did buy him all he needed but this seems to be because they thought he had found an interest in something that would help in to interact with other children.

His Playstation was bought as a Christmas present and he was told that it was a joint present with his younger sister. Computer games were birthday and Christmas presents and he had to use them on his parents' laptops and it seems he was about 15 years old before he had his own computer.

His first car was a hand-down from his mother when she got a new car. When he started college his father paid his tuition and gave him a $500 a month allowance, his mother paid his rent. His clothes were usually bought with gift card sent as presents by his grandmother, mother and aunts. The $300 sunglasses were given to him by his mother but they were the only pair he had.

The only extravagant present he ever received was his BMW and maybe that was a 21st birthday present.

When he damaged his computer while throwing a temper tantrum he had to lie saying it had broken down and begging her to get him a new one telling her he needed it for study.

Also Rodger seem to have very different values from his parents. Elliot was extremely racist yet his father had married firstly a Malaysian woman and then a Moroccan woman and he seems to have had friends from various ethnic groups. Elliot's sister had a half-Hispanic boyfriend which angered Elliot greatly though the boyfriend was totally accepted by his parents.

I think that his parents parented him as good as anyone could have. What went wrong was not their fault, their child was wired wrongly from birth.