Animation in the United States
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Dusty Ayres
Commodore
Only to you, which sort of proves the points made above about ghettoization.
From a technical POV, anime doesn't quite stack up to American animation in terms of budget and fluidity. The industry is sort of stuck by playing with Tezuka's rules (Low frame rate, big eyes etc.); even Miyazaki aknowledges this. Although part of this is due to low budget.
I think the reason there has been a heavy backlash against anime is partially because of this.
Although nearly ten years out of date, this article in which several animation experts are interview about anime (With only really an anime encyclopedia writer stepping up in it's defense) sums up part of the backlash:
http://www.awn.com/mag/issue5.09/5.09pages/osmondanime.php3
I think the reason there has been a heavy backlash against anime is partially because of this.
Although nearly ten years out of date, this article in which several animation experts are interview about anime (With only really an anime encyclopedia writer stepping up in it's defense) sums up part of the backlash:
http://www.awn.com/mag/issue5.09/5.09pages/osmondanime.php3
You know, that's really funny. I guess you're not aware that essentially every "American" animated TV program these days is actually animated in Japan, Korea, the Philippines, or sometimes China. Aside from some of the cheapo Flash-animated stuff in recent years, there hasn't been an American show actually animated stateside since Filmation Associates went out of business in the mid-'80s. And Filmation wasn't exactly known for budget or fluidity.
The best, most fluid animation I've ever seen in television has been the work of Japanese studios like Spectrum, TMS, and Rough Draft and Korean studios like DR Movie. Yes, it's true that the average Japanese television series doesn't get as high an animation budget as a Warner Bros. production, but they're made by the same companies. And I've seen Japanese feature films with magnificent animation.
You're making an absurd generalization. I've seen my share of anime styles that didn't include "big eyes." Anime isn't a single beast. It's a blanket term for the entire animation industry of an entire nation. And it has as much diversity of content, style, and quality as any rational person should know to expect of such a broad and inclusive category.
The problem is that most of the anime shows that get imported to America are the cheap ones -- the ones that cost less to import -- as well as the ones that are most similar to the shows like Pokemon and Yu-Gi-Oh that are popular with American kids. So Americans get a narrow and biased sample of what's really out there.
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To quote Spock...
Facinating.
I only skimmed it, but it does make some good points.
It depends on what you're comparing, I think. For instance, no, an anime television show just is not given the budget of an average US made movie. So if one proposes such a cross-format comparison they're just being unrealistic and comparing apples to oranges. If one compares two TV shows there would definitely be a case except in the rare occasions of things like Macross Frontier which seemingly insane amounts of yen and hard work were put into, making it look just gorgeous and awe inspiring. When comparing movies to movies the difference in budgets is far less noticeable, though it still may not be up to par. The Japanese industry is far larger than ours and essentially what they do is produce more things with less money.
On the reverse end of things what anime lacks in budget and frame rates and such it makes up for with diversity, increased quality and depth of story and artistry. Generally, this is not apparent if all one watches is the limited amount of shows that get televised on places like Cartoon Network's Adult Swim due to the audience they try to attract. One really has to be willing to invest some money into DVDs or get them from Netflix to get a more accurate overview. For instance you won't find any US animated things like Haibane Renmei, Welcome to the NHK, or Koi Kaze and none of those will ever be on regular TV even though they're all masterpieces.
Now, if someone were to ask me what I'd prefer more, my animation to look flawless or more diversity of story, then I would choose the story over looks which I feel are superficial. I would not care about a reduction of quality if the story was there, but preferably it would be nice to have both.
Facinating.
I only skimmed it, but it does make some good points.
It depends on what you're comparing, I think. For instance, no, an anime television show just is not given the budget of an average US made movie. So if one proposes such a cross-format comparison they're just being unrealistic and comparing apples to oranges. If one compares two TV shows there would definitely be a case except in the rare occasions of things like Macross Frontier which seemingly insane amounts of yen and hard work were put into, making it look just gorgeous and awe inspiring. When comparing movies to movies the difference in budgets is far less noticeable, though it still may not be up to par. The Japanese industry is far larger than ours and essentially what they do is produce more things with less money.
On the reverse end of things what anime lacks in budget and frame rates and such it makes up for with diversity, increased quality and depth of story and artistry. Generally, this is not apparent if all one watches is the limited amount of shows that get televised on places like Cartoon Network's Adult Swim due to the audience they try to attract. One really has to be willing to invest some money into DVDs or get them from Netflix to get a more accurate overview. For instance you won't find any US animated things like Haibane Renmei, Welcome to the NHK, or Koi Kaze and none of those will ever be on regular TV even though they're all masterpieces.
Now, if someone were to ask me what I'd prefer more, my animation to look flawless or more diversity of story, then I would choose the story over looks which I feel are superficial. I would not care about a reduction of quality if the story was there, but preferably it would be nice to have both.
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I double-dog dare any western animation company to put out something even close to Maison Ikkoku (which I'm sure isn't even close to unusual in Japan). A 96 episode tease like that would have American audiences going insane.
MTV used to be the place for adult animation until the network became irrelevant... and even then, King of the Hill was a one time fluke. Still, there was a time when the 90s were a great time for "adult" animation. Hell, even The Simpsons was good back then. 
Even then, animation quality is fairly low unfortunately. I took at look at the new Spider-man cartoon and it looks like a slide show at times.
Even then, animation quality is fairly low unfortunately. I took at look at the new Spider-man cartoon and it looks like a slide show at times.
Good grief, hardly. I'm not a fan of the character design style on The Spectacular Spider-Man, but it has some of the most dynamic and fluid animation I've ever seen on television. Its action scenes are incredibly well-animated, and the character animation is excellently expressive and nuanced even though the overly cartoony designs work against that.
It's 2010. If it's 2D then it's a slideshow, if it's 3D CGI made by Pixar, then it's an animation.
I have a preference for anime myself. Watched Summer Wars last night, excellent movie, Wargames for the Facebook generation. As with most anime nowadays, it's a blend of 2D traditional and 3D CGI and it looks stunning!
I think there may be a appreciative disconnect when it comes to anime. What some people think of as a slideshow, others view as a creative choice. One thing I don't see in Western animation is the use of stillness to convey a mood. Feelings and thoughts can be conveyed without resorting to Looney Tunes exaggeration of emotion. Spock never went bug eyed when he faced the unexpected, he just raised an eyebrow, anime gets that.
I have a preference for anime myself. Watched Summer Wars last night, excellent movie, Wargames for the Facebook generation. As with most anime nowadays, it's a blend of 2D traditional and 3D CGI and it looks stunning!
I think there may be a appreciative disconnect when it comes to anime. What some people think of as a slideshow, others view as a creative choice. One thing I don't see in Western animation is the use of stillness to convey a mood. Feelings and thoughts can be conveyed without resorting to Looney Tunes exaggeration of emotion. Spock never went bug eyed when he faced the unexpected, he just raised an eyebrow, anime gets that.
^Samurai Jack is an example of Western animation that "gets that".
A lot of anime is filled with even more over-the-top expressions of mood than most of what you'll see in Western animation. What is the American equivalent of having your head grow three times it's normal size, your eyes into large hearts and your eyes pumping out more water than a fire truck?
Western animation is more limited in a lot of ways, but Anime as a whole is free of NONE of Western animation's weaknesses because of that. Most of it is average to bad in quality (like all forms of media), it's as full of cliche as any other form of media. Saying you "like anime" and "dislike American cartoons" is simply too broad a statement. I'm sure there is anime you despise and I think if you dismissed all American animation you'd be lying to yourself.
^Not directed at anyone here in particular.
A lot of anime is filled with even more over-the-top expressions of mood than most of what you'll see in Western animation. What is the American equivalent of having your head grow three times it's normal size, your eyes into large hearts and your eyes pumping out more water than a fire truck?
Western animation is more limited in a lot of ways, but Anime as a whole is free of NONE of Western animation's weaknesses because of that. Most of it is average to bad in quality (like all forms of media), it's as full of cliche as any other form of media. Saying you "like anime" and "dislike American cartoons" is simply too broad a statement. I'm sure there is anime you despise and I think if you dismissed all American animation you'd be lying to yourself.
^Not directed at anyone here in particular.
Yeah, the good old "90% of [Insert form of media here] is crap" works with both domestic animation and anime in theory. There are definitely bad examples of anime and good ones of domestic animation. On the other hand though I've found there just isn't as much domestic animation I like when compared with the amount of Japanese animation I found appealing.
Hence my point about us needing to diversify it into other genres. Where are the science fiction epic? I want more stuff like Titan AE and Roughnecks: Starship Trooper Chronicles. Where's the graphically violent action like Sword of the Stranger or Black Lagoon? It's rare but not non-existent, however violence in animation is generally neutered here. Where's the philosophical and psychological works like Haibane Renmei and Paprika? I don't know of any.
Hence my point about us needing to diversify it into other genres. Where are the science fiction epic? I want more stuff like Titan AE and Roughnecks: Starship Trooper Chronicles. Where's the graphically violent action like Sword of the Stranger or Black Lagoon? It's rare but not non-existent, however violence in animation is generally neutered here. Where's the philosophical and psychological works like Haibane Renmei and Paprika? I don't know of any.
I've heard the assertion that animation is not taken as seriously in the U.S. a lot, and I'm genuinely curious, what is the basis for it? Is there a lot of non-comedy animated programming on TV in prime-time in other countries? Or is it primarily Japan we're talking about?
Is the qualifier that studios in other countries are more willing to take on feature-length animated projects?
If we're talking about short-form animation aren't there just as many people doing that in the U.S. as there are elsewhere?
Is the qualifier that studios in other countries are more willing to take on feature-length animated projects?
If we're talking about short-form animation aren't there just as many people doing that in the U.S. as there are elsewhere?
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It's about half and half an issue of immaturity or ignorance and an issue of quantity and diversity.
Case in point one is the general belief here that animation is only a form of children's programming or at the very least weightless or crude fluff to get a laugh out of. This belief is in supported through the under-production of counter-example works here, which in turn helps perpetuate the incorrect philosophy that animation is for children, because few companies will make works contrary to this. The solution is for more companies to grow a pair and diversify, but no real move has been made by anyone to do so yet. Most people would not initially consider the fact animation can tell a decent story too unless exposed to something that does. Hell, even I used to think that way. This immaturity is not shared by rest of the world.
In the second point, yes, other countries use animation more as a means to tell a good story. Japan is just the best example, because there are quite a lot of famous companies that put things on television and produce theatrical films. In addition these works are as varied in content as live action programming is and don't just target kids. Every season there's roughly 30-40 shows produced and airing on television in various time-slots throughout the day on many prime television stations. Shows for children, shows for male teens (shounen), shows for female teens (shoujo), shows for male adults (seinen), shows for female adults (Jousei), etc. These shows are usually designed with fairly clear objectives and tell a story over a season or two (12-26 half hour episodes) and conclude with a definite ending of some sort. There are, of course series that run longer too. if the source material permits, but shorter is the norm. The studio then moves on to other projects. At least 4-5 theatrical animated films are released per month in their theaters which is usually all we get in a year here. Typically, Japanese animation companies will work on both television series, movies, as well as the occasional direct to video or net animation project and don't really specialize in one area.
Case in point one is the general belief here that animation is only a form of children's programming or at the very least weightless or crude fluff to get a laugh out of. This belief is in supported through the under-production of counter-example works here, which in turn helps perpetuate the incorrect philosophy that animation is for children, because few companies will make works contrary to this. The solution is for more companies to grow a pair and diversify, but no real move has been made by anyone to do so yet. Most people would not initially consider the fact animation can tell a decent story too unless exposed to something that does. Hell, even I used to think that way. This immaturity is not shared by rest of the world.
In the second point, yes, other countries use animation more as a means to tell a good story. Japan is just the best example, because there are quite a lot of famous companies that put things on television and produce theatrical films. In addition these works are as varied in content as live action programming is and don't just target kids. Every season there's roughly 30-40 shows produced and airing on television in various time-slots throughout the day on many prime television stations. Shows for children, shows for male teens (shounen), shows for female teens (shoujo), shows for male adults (seinen), shows for female adults (Jousei), etc. These shows are usually designed with fairly clear objectives and tell a story over a season or two (12-26 half hour episodes) and conclude with a definite ending of some sort. There are, of course series that run longer too. if the source material permits, but shorter is the norm. The studio then moves on to other projects. At least 4-5 theatrical animated films are released per month in their theaters which is usually all we get in a year here. Typically, Japanese animation companies will work on both television series, movies, as well as the occasional direct to video or net animation project and don't really specialize in one area.
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its all about money here. Disney musical style was popular in the 90's so every studio tried to ape it. Now the Dreamworks comedy cgi style is what rakes in the dough so thats what everyone wants to do now. The day some brave(haha right!) studio decides to get the balls & release a more serious animated film-if it becomes a success, only then you might start seeing more of the same from other studios. People like to dismiss Disney alot but at least they tried for something a bit more mature & different back when they released Atlantis & Treasure Planet. But those movies bombed... intsead everyone flocked to Dreamork's cgi lowbrow comedies.
so also, I think some of the blame goes to the public. They have a chance to see more mature stuff like the Miyazaki films but they dont bite. Theyd rather watch Shrek 15 or whatever.
so also, I think some of the blame goes to the public. They have a chance to see more mature stuff like the Miyazaki films but they dont bite. Theyd rather watch Shrek 15 or whatever.
So what country other than Japan does what you're looking for in animation? What we're asking is, is the US the outlier as the only country that limits animation to children/comedies, or is Japan the outlier as the only country that produces a broad range of animation?
Well to start with, I've seen animation from France, Japan, China, Korea and Israel who can produce more mature entertainment. I'm no expert on the matter otherwise I wouldn't have asked for input, but you can go check out the links upthread or watch the stuff mentioned like Persepolis, Waltz with Bashir, or The Triplets of Belleville and see for yourself how stuff we make doesn't stack up too well as being mature.
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Dusty Ayres
Commodore
And 'more mature' doesn't mean crap shows like King Of the Hill & South Park or pieces of shit like A Scanner Darkly, it means movies like Perfect Blue, Tokyo Godfathers, Millenium Actress, Akira, and Metropolis (not to forget Paprika, Steamboy and a few others) or TV shows like Death Note. That's the kind of animation and stories that we should be seeing
in North America, but we don't. And that is why anime's popular, and getting more so everyday.
Mhmm, while its popularity may be rising in North America (I don't know if that's true either way), the people's desire to purchase anime is dwindling.
Whether that's a commentary on the type of anime being imported not appealing adequately enough to the viewers, the economy, anime fan ages plummeting, or piracy/fansubs... I can't say.
EDIT: And while I don't know specifically if Japanese anime fan purchases are rising or falling, I do know their industry is hurting because of the growing reliance on the American market.
