Angel...the beginning of the end

[RaymondJames]

I did not like the way Oz left (both times!)
The first time was horrrible because he cheated on Willow and that was a down fall for his good character though was it the man or the beast inside the man? or both?

In the second time he comes back to find the lov eof his life with someone else...a girl And he gets all nasty and does alot of hating. His hate for Tara was harsh and i just can't stand the last time seeing him was Oz being the polar opposite of loving, caring...ect Oz needed character redemption.

 

[Lindley]

We did actually see him one more time, in Willow's dream sequence in "Restless". But he doesn't do anything particularly deep there.

 

[Ethros]

Anyone else think Smile Time is overrated?
Yes it's pretty funny, but I used to buy the official Angel magazine a few years ago, and in a readers poll it was voted the 2nd best episode of the show? (I Will Remember You was no.1, and Not Fade Away no.3)

Yes Angel is a puppet, haha very funny. Yes he has a fight with Spike, hoho. But once you get past laughing at Angel as a puppet... what else is there?

It's not bad and I like the episode, but other Angel eps like Guise Will Be Guise and Spin The Bottle are way funnier IMO
Wesley: "Dear god! That's... nummy"

 

[Mr Light]

"Smile Time" is hilarious as hell but I certainly wouldn't put it in the top five or anything. I haven't watched Angel since it ended so I don't recall the episodes so well anymore.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

The episode right after "Smile Time", "A Hole In The World" is one of the best of the series as well. Of course, I can use that episode as the prime example of why Joss Whedon is an absolute bastard. He makes us laugh our heads off with one episode, and then plunges us into the deepest despair possible with the next.

 

[RoJoHen]

Let's not talk about those yet, please.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

Joss Whedon being a bastard is nothing you didn't already know.

 

[RoJoHen]

That's true. I fucking hate the guy.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Yay Cordelia coming back! Boo Cordelia dying! (at least in this instance I think her death, and the episode overall, was handled very well). One of my favorite things about this episode was that, after 5 years, Cordelia and Angel still feel so strongly for Doyle. THis character was only in half of the first season, and Cordelia was disgusted when she heard that Lindsey was using his name.

The best thing is that Cordelia was truly herself in this episode. As shallow, funny, powerful, surprisingly deep and honourable as ever. If we had to lose her as a character, this was absolutely the way for her to go.

I was definitely feeling that the characters were off the whole first half of the season as a result of their new positions at Wolfram and Hart, and Cordelia's return definitely feels like it set them back on track.

Entirely the point. Angel and gang totally were thrown. They thought they could handle it, but it was killing them. If you notice, it was the very point when Angel said "I can't do this anymore" that Cordelia woke up. The Powers That Be want Angel there. They have a very specific reason for Angel to be at W&H - which is yet to be revealed - and that is why they sent Cordelia.

Anyone else think Smile Time is overrated?
Yes it's pretty funny, but I used to buy the official Angel magazine a few years ago, and in a readers poll it was voted the 2nd best episode of the show? (I Will Remember You was no.1, and Not Fade Away no.3)

Yes Angel is a puppet, haha very funny. Yes he has a fight with Spike, hoho. But once you get past laughing at Angel as a puppet... what else is there?

Oh God, there is so much. There is the irony of the fact that the puppets are the ones doing the manipulating of the humans, not the other way around. Angel and his gang have been the puppets of the Powers That Be and Wolfram and Hart all this time, but it takes literally being a puppet to drive it home to them. The creepy child abuse angle as the puppets say "go on, touch it" to the kids through the screen.

But most of all, the fact that Frampton (and the creators of "Happy Days" before him) made a literal deal with the devil, selling his soul in a desperate attempt to keep his show on the air. Just like Joss was forced to do to get Angel renewed for a fifth season. His bitterness over that is quite palpable. Or at least it is to me. And yet, the irony there is that it didn't make him "jump the shark" - it actually freed him up to be even more creative and effective than ever.

 

[RoJoHen]

Yay Cordelia coming back! Boo Cordelia dying! (at least in this instance I think her death, and the episode overall, was handled very well). One of my favorite things about this episode was that, after 5 years, Cordelia and Angel still feel so strongly for Doyle. THis character was only in half of the first season, and Cordelia was disgusted when she heard that Lindsey was using his name.

The best thing is that Cordelia was truly herself in this episode. As shallow, funny, powerful, surprisingly deep and honourable as ever. If we had to lose her as a character, this was absolutely the way for her to go.

I was definitely feeling that the characters were off the whole first half of the season as a result of their new positions at Wolfram and Hart, and Cordelia's return definitely feels like it set them back on track.

Entirely the point. Angel and gang totally were thrown. They thought they could handle it, but it was killing them. If you notice, it was the very point when Angel said "I can't do this anymore" that Cordelia woke up. The Powers That Be want Angel there. They have a very specific reason for Angel to be at W&H - which is yet to be revealed - and that is why they sent Cordelia.

And now I'm at a point where there are only 9 or 10 episodes left. I cannot wait to see how the rest of the story plays out. I feel like it's gonna get good.

 

[OdoWanKenobi]

Most certainly. Angel's final stretch is simply fantastic. Probably some of the strongest stuff of the entire Buffyverse.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Anyone else think Smile Time is overrated?
Yes it's pretty funny, but I used to buy the official Angel magazine a few years ago, and in a readers poll it was voted the 2nd best episode of the show? (I Will Remember You was no.1, and Not Fade Away no.3)

Yes Angel is a puppet, haha very funny. Yes he has a fight with Spike, hoho. But once you get past laughing at Angel as a puppet... what else is there?

You want more?! You greedy bastard!

Just the very insane concept of the episode is enough to make it one of the best of the series. I mean, who else would even come up with this kind of thing (while sober anyway)?

Also, loved seeing the return of Andrew, and it kind of hurt when he told Angel, "No one trusts you anymore."

That kinda bothered me. I liked the stuff with Angel & Spike at the end where Spike seems to really realize for the first time what a monster he was. But Andrew always kinda annoyed me and I really hated that he showed up Angel on his own series. Plus, the idea that Buffy would all of a sudden start not trusting Angel without actually going to L.A. and asking him what's going on? I don't buy it (and many other sources have tried to retcon that accordingly).

We ended on "Why We Fight," which was kind of lame. Looks like the puppets are coming up next time...

I didn't like "Why We Fight" much at first but it gets better on subsequent viewings.

 

[Rii]

His hate for Tara was harsh and i just can't stand the last time seeing him was Oz being the polar opposite of loving, caring...ect Oz needed character redemption.

I think that scene would've played better if we'd been given further insight into what Oz was going through at the time. For all that Oz and Tara were important figures in the story, it was very much Willow's episode and we weren't provided with the appropriate context for that scene, so Oz came out looking like a prick.

His life pretty much fell apart here, past, present, and future. The future he was hoping for, that had driven him since his first departure, was gone. All his trials and exertions were for naught, he still couldn't control the wolf, and if anything his departure actually contributed to the loss of that which he was striving for, in that Willow moved on his absence. He'd thought that he and Willow had been re-establishing a rapport, yet discovers that she'd hidden the nature of her relationship with Tara from him. Further, the existence of that relationship with Tara would create doubts in Oz's mind as to the legitimacy of their relationship. Did Willow really love him? Had he been holding her back? Worse, did he push her away? All thoughts which could be rationalised away, but not in the immediacy of the moment.

 

[Rii]

But Andrew always kinda annoyed me and I really hated that he showed up Angel on his own series. Plus, the idea that Buffy would all of a sudden start not trusting Angel without actually going to L.A. and asking him what's going on?

I love Andrew and was delighted to see him again on Angel.

If Buffy had appeared in "You're Welcome" as originally planned it seems likely that her newfound distrust for Angel would've been addressed and cleared up then. In that light Andrew's line seems like an obvious lead-in to that episode, actually.

 

[The Borgified Corpse]

Honestly, I still can't imagine how "You're Welcome" would have played with Buffy instead of Cordelia. For one thing, I can't imagine it having the same poignant ending.

 

[RaymondJames]

His hate for Tara was harsh and i just can't stand the last time seeing him was Oz being the polar opposite of loving, caring...ect Oz needed character redemption.

I think that scene would've played better if we'd been given further insight into what Oz was going through at the time. For all that Oz and Tara were important figures in the story, it was very much Willow's episode and we weren't provided with the appropriate context for that scene, so Oz came out looking like a prick.

His life pretty much fell apart here, past, present, and future. The future he was hoping for, that had driven him since his first departure, was gone. All his trials and exertions were for naught, he still couldn't control the wolf, and if anything his departure actually contributed to the loss of that which he was striving for, in that Willow moved on his absence. He'd thought that he and Willow had been re-establishing a rapport, yet discovers that she'd hidden the nature of her relationship with Tara from him. Further, the existence of that relationship with Tara would create doubts in Oz's mind as to the legitimacy of their relationship. Did Willow really love him? Had he been holding her back? Worse, did he push her away? All thoughts which could be rationalised away, but not in the immediacy of the moment.

I have been in his shoes in a way
I didn't cheat on her and I ended it at its high and it wa speaceful. However she is infact bi sexual (which i knew before) and oddly enough Wiccan.

 

[Ethros]

I really like some of the continuity in "Why We Fight", which links back to what Spike said when he was first captured by the Initiative in Buffy season 4
Vampire: They starve you. When you're ready to bite your own arm, they shoot out one of those packets. You drink, and the next thing, you're gone. And that's when they do the experiments.
Spike: And, uh, they are? The government? Nazis? A major cosmetics company?

And the foundings of the group are seen through the men in black Angel meets
"I represent a relatively new agency, Demon Research Initiative"


Always love how the Buffyverse always does those great continuity nods

 

[Mr Light]

Wow, I'd never heard before it was supposed to be Buffy in "You're Welcome"! How in the world would that have worked out?

 

[RoJoHen]

^Well, after the events of Season 7, she probably had a better attitude and stronger drive towards her mission as Slayer. It would make sense for her to try and set Angel straight.

However, the episode probably would have involved way too much Angel/Spike/Buffy angsty love triangle crap. I'm so glad Cordelia got her send off instead.

 

[Seven of Five]

Buffy instead of Cordy in 'You're Welcome'? Sacrilidge!

To be fair, an episode where Buffy, Angel and Spike, I guess, wouldn't have been so bad *if* it had been written like 'You're Welcome,' in regards to Buffy acting more like her old self (like Cordy did), having no angst, and having a plot that strengthens character bonds that were shit all over when Andrew came and dissed Angel. I suppose something like that could have happned instead of 'The Girl In Question.' And I'll stop there because we're getting ahead of ourselves!