Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador kit!

[USS Mariner]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

FalTorPan said:

Captain Robert April said:
Well, the very designation "Sovereign class" indicates at least a USS Sovereign.

My point is that there are always possibilities. What works for one person need not work for another.

Perhaps the original, "pre-totaled" E-C wasn't even Ambassador-class, much the same as the idea that the 1701 was converted from Constitution to Enterprise-class.

 

[FalTorPan]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Here's my "version 2.0" of the history of Probert's Ambassador prototype and Enterprise-C. It's my story, and I'm sticking to it. Of course, no one else has to.

Andrew Probert's Ambassador in the Star Trek Chronology

2317

Starfleet Command contracts two starship design firms -- PD and RSS -- to each construct a working prototype for what may become the next major starship class -- the Ambassador class. The deadline for prototype completion is 2322.

2322

PD and RSS complete construction of their respective Ambassador prototypes: PD-AMB-1 and RSS-AMB-1, respectively. Two months before Starfleet is to decide which design will be carried through to production, PD surprises Starfleet and RSS with a highly publicized announcement of completion of what it dubs the "USS Enterprise NCC-1701-C": a second, fully operational prototype of PD's Ambassador-class concept (PD-AMB-2). The announcement leads to months of controversy. Starfleet Command attempts to minimize the impact of PD's public yet unapproved and unofficial announcement of the so-called next Enterprise; nonetheless, public opinion and the persuasion of key members of the Federation Council persuade Starfleet to commission PD's two prototypes as Ambassador-class vessels, although Starfleet ultimately awards the contract for all other Ambassador-class starships to RSS.

2323

PD-AMB-1, christened the Ambassador-class USS Ambassador NX-10521, is launched.

RSS-AMB-1, christened USS Horatio NCC-10532, is launched.

PD-AMB-2, officially christened USS Enterprise NCC-1701-C, is launched. All subsequent Ambassador-class starships are based on the RSS concept.

2335

USS Yamaguchi NCC-26510, the first Ambassador-class starship of an uprated RSS concept, is launched.

2338

USS Enterprise NCC-1701-C is heavily damaged in a surprise attack. The need for extensive repairs provides the opportunity to upgrade many of the ship's systems, and to give the ship a more standard Ambassador configuration, facilitating future maintenance and repairs.

2344

USS Enterprise NCC-1701-C falls to Romulan attackers while defending Klingon outpost at Narendra III.

2370

USS Ambassador NCC-10521 undergoes its first major refit. The ship retains its basic configuration, and becomes a testbed for an uprated warp propulsion system that has minimal adverse effects on subspace. Many aspects of this propulsion system find their way into the systems of Sovereign-class starships. USS Ambassador continues to serve until at least well into the 2380s.

Why do I have the opinion that Probert's design is both the USS Ambassador and an Ambassador-class starship? (1) Probert came up with the name Ambassador, which ought to count for something. (2) Probert came up with the first design for the Ambassador-class starship, which ought to count for something. (3) The Enterprise-C half-model in the Enterprise-D's conference lounge is clearly based on Probert's design -- and this is just as "cannnnon" as the ring ship Enterprise in TMP.

Why do I have the opinion that the Enterprise-C once resembled Probert's Ambassador-class starship design? The Enterprise-C half-model in the Enterprise-D's conference lounge is clearly based on Probert's design -- and this is just as "cannnnon" as the ring ship Enterprise in TMP.

How can I justify that both Probert and Sternbach's designs can both be Ambassador-class ships? Why not? Besides, according to "cannnnon," the TOS Enterprise, TMP Enterprise and Enterprise-A are all considered Constitution-class ships. This conjectural scenario is no less plausible, in my opinion.

As I said, this is just my conjecture. I'm not going to lose any sleep if people dislike it.

 

[Captain Robert April]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

The relief sculpture of the Enterprise-B doesn't exactly match the actual ship, why take it as a matter of faith that the one of the E-C matches?

As for the TOS, TMP, and E-A, I think there might be some wiggle room, particularly in the case of the refit. Remember that sign outside the simulator, "Enterprise Class"? It can be argued that the Enterprise was so extensively altered in its refit that it essentially became a class of her own. The ship that would become the Enterprise-A, on the other hand, was refit to different standards, which were codified into the new Constitution class.

 

[FalTorPan]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Captain Robert April said:
The relief sculpture of the Enterprise-B doesn't exactly match the actual ship, why take it as a matter of faith that the one of the E-C matches?

It would have matched, had the Excelsior model not been altered for the movie. In any case, I'm not taking anything as a matter of faith. I deliberately chose to try to work this design into established continuity.

Captain Robert April said:As for the TOS, TMP, and E-A, I think there might be some wiggle room, particularly in the case of the refit. Remember that sign outside the simulator, "Enterprise Class"? It can be argued that the Enterprise was so extensively altered in its refit that it essentially became a class of her own. The ship that would become the Enterprise-A, on the other hand, was refit to different standards, which were codified into the new Constitution class.

That's all news to me!

 

[LiChiu]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Though this design looks good, I think I like the existing ambassador class better.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

FalTorPan said:

Captain Robert April said:
Well, the very designation "Sovereign class" indicates at least a USS Sovereign.

My point is that there are always possibilities. What works for one person need not work for another.

Except that, once again, we're "redefining for personal opinion" not a FICTIONAL concept but a REAL WORLD concept.

The entire concept of a "ship class" is based upon the first vessel constructed with that configuration.

So, it's not "a matter of personal opinion." The use of the term "Sovereign Class" says... WITHOUT ANY HINT OF AMBIGUITY OR ANY ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION... that the first ship built to that configuration was called the Sovereign.

You might as well say that the word "YOU" can mean whatever you want it to, and doesn't have to mean what "YOU" actually means.

It's OK to be ignorant of what the term means. But it's not OK to say that, just because a term has a particular meaning, you can just reinvent any meaning you want for that term because you feel like it.

The first ship of the Constitution class MUST have been the USS Constitution (in Trek terms). The first ship of the Galaxy class would be the USS Galaxy. The first ship of the Sovereign class would be the USS Sovereign.

Back in the REAL WORLD, the first ship of the Los Angeles class submarine fleet was the USS Los Angeles. The first ship of the Ticonderoga class was the USS Ticonderoga. And the list goes on.

Real words... real terms... REAL MEANINGS. And not "subject to interpretation" at all.

 

[FalTorPan]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Cary L. Brown said:

FalTorPan said:

Captain Robert April said:
Well, the very designation "Sovereign class" indicates at least a USS Sovereign.

My point is that there are always possibilities. What works for one person need not work for another.

Except that, once again, we're "redefining for personal opinion" not a FICTIONAL concept but a REAL WORLD concept.

The entire concept of a "ship class" is based upon the first vessel constructed with that configuration.

So, it's not "a matter of personal opinion." The use of the term "Sovereign Class" says... WITHOUT ANY HINT OF AMBIGUITY OR ANY ROOM FOR INTERPRETATION... that the first ship built to that configuration was called the Sovereign.

You might as well say that the word "YOU" can mean whatever you want it to, and doesn't have to mean what "YOU" actually means.

It's OK to be ignorant of what the term means. But it's not OK to say that, just because a term has a particular meaning, you can just reinvent any meaning you want for that term because you feel like it.

The first ship of the Constitution class MUST have been the USS Constitution (in Trek terms). The first ship of the Galaxy class would be the USS Galaxy. The first ship of the Sovereign class would be the USS Sovereign.

Back in the REAL WORLD, the first ship of the Los Angeles class submarine fleet was the USS Los Angeles. The first ship of the Ticonderoga class was the USS Ticonderoga. And the list goes on.

Real words... real terms... REAL MEANINGS. And not "subject to interpretation" at all.

I'm just trying to have fun. I'll be back after the next update from Mr. Probert, and my comments will be confined to those updates. The rest of this thread -- including my own posts -- can take a flying leap.

Buh-bye.

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

FalTorPan said:How can I justify that both Probert and Sternbach's designs can both be Ambassador-class ships? Why not? Besides, according to "cannnnon," the TOS Enterprise, TMP Enterprise and Enterprise-A are all considered Constitution-class ships. This conjectural scenario is no less plausible, in my opinion.

As I said, this is just my conjecture. I'm not going to lose any sleep if people dislike it.

Well, "Class" typically refers to FUNCTIONALITY, much more than cosmetics.

The idea behind ship classes is not to say that "these two ships look sort of similar." It's to allow FLEET COMMAND to pick ships for specific roles based upon a known set of capabilities. They need a ship that can do this, this, and this... and they know that this class of ship can do those things... so they assign that task to a ship of that class. They don't have to look at unique characteristics for every single ship in the fleet, they just know (for example) that the Enterprise Class (aka "Constitution Refit") has a certain cargo-carrying capability, while the Belknap class (for example) has significantly less... so if you need a certain amount of cargo to be moved, you use an Enterprise class rather than a Belknap class. Etc, etc.

There may be variations in functionality, but those variations are small.

On the other hand, it's not uncommon for two ships of a class (in REAL LIFE) to be built at two different shipyards. Each ship must meet the full specification, and must meet (or exceed) every definition and performance specification in the ship requirements list.

But it's not uncommon, at all, for two shipyards to produce ships that look slightly different... but are still very much functionally interchangeable.

If we try to merge Andrew's concept into the "canon" (that "curse word" that seems to send certain folks here into an almost religious state of apoplexy), the way that it works is simple.

One ship was built at SFO San Francisco. One was built at Utopia Planitia, Mars.

Andrew's concept is the Utopia Planitia built version... it looks much more like the Galaxy design in certain ways. The one we saw on-screen is the San Francisco dockyards build (following along with the TOS/TMP style a bit more in several key ways).

But both look very similar and both have almost identical functionality.

I always wondered why the front wall of the 1701-D's conf. lounge got replaced (in-fiction).

My take? The wall was built by a lowest-bidder, and they used the wrong configuration... eventually, Picard got sick of explaining to visiting dignitaries why his "wall of history" was all wrong, so he had it ripped out!

 

[Captain Robert April]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Cary L. Brown said:
I always wondered why the front wall of the 1701-D's conf. lounge got replaced (in-fiction).

My take? The wall was built by a lowest-bidder, and they used the wrong configuration... eventually, Picard got sick of explaining to visiting dignitaries why his "wall of history" was all wrong, so he had it ripped out!

Oooooh, I like that!

 

[Data Holmes]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Cary L. Brown said:

FalTorPan said:How can I justify that both Probert and Sternbach's designs can both be Ambassador-class ships? Why not? Besides, according to "cannnnon," the TOS Enterprise, TMP Enterprise and Enterprise-A are all considered Constitution-class ships. This conjectural scenario is no less plausible, in my opinion.

As I said, this is just my conjecture. I'm not going to lose any sleep if people dislike it.

Well, "Class" typically refers to FUNCTIONALITY, much more than cosmetics.

The idea behind ship classes is not to say that "these two ships look sort of similar." It's to allow FLEET COMMAND to pick ships for specific roles based upon a known set of capabilities. They need a ship that can do this, this, and this... and they know that this class of ship can do those things... so they assign that task to a ship of that class. They don't have to look at unique characteristics for every single ship in the fleet, they just know (for example) that the Enterprise Class (aka "Constitution Refit") has a certain cargo-carrying capability, while the Belknap class (for example) has significantly less... so if you need a certain amount of cargo to be moved, you use an Enterprise class rather than a Belknap class. Etc, etc.

There may be variations in functionality, but those variations are small.

On the other hand, it's not uncommon for two ships of a class (in REAL LIFE) to be built at two different shipyards. Each ship must meet the full specification, and must meet (or exceed) every definition and performance specification in the ship requirements list.

But it's not uncommon, at all, for two shipyards to produce ships that look slightly different... but are still very much functionally interchangeable.

If we try to merge Andrew's concept into the "canon" (that "curse word" that seems to send certain folks here into an almost religious state of apoplexy), the way that it works is simple.

One ship was built at SFO San Francisco. One was built at Utopia Planitia, Mars.

Andrew's concept is the Utopia Planitia built version... it looks much more like the Galaxy design in certain ways. The one we saw on-screen is the San Francisco dockyards build (following along with the TOS/TMP style a bit more in several key ways).

But both look very similar and both have almost identical functionality.

Oooo, I like that a lot...

I always wondered why the front wall of the 1701-D's conf. lounge got replaced (in-fiction).

My take? The wall was built by a lowest-bidder, and they used the wrong configuration... eventually, Picard got sick of explaining to visiting dignitaries why his "wall of history" was all wrong, so he had it ripped out!

Well, it could have been that the fitters at UP decided to put the UP design spec models for the E-b and E-C "classes" instead of the proper SFY hull configurations. There might be a big rivalry between the Staff's of those two and it might have carried into the models.

 

[Tallguy]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Cary L. Brown said:
My take? The wall was built by a lowest-bidder, and they used the wrong configuration... eventually, Picard got sick of explaining to visiting dignitaries why his "wall of history" was all wrong, so he had it ripped out!

Are you suggesting MONEY in Picard's Federation? :O

 

[aridas sofia]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Why is it so hard to believe that a society with transporters, replicators and holodecks could take a ship launched as Probert's design and "refit" it at some later date to Sternbach's design? That is, if one is unable to squint and make themselves see the intended design when the 1701-C is on the screen.

After all, as Eymorgs and Orions will tell you, a ship that looks one way today might look very different when TNG-R rears its head.

 

[Timo]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki



To stir the canon soup, we

a) don't know that the ships on Picard's wall are supposed to be Enterprises (indeed, three of them are very poor portrayals of ships of that name in the canon universe, while all have lots of detail and seem to realistically portray whatever they are intended to portray)

b) don't know that the E-C would be of Ambassador class, nor that any of the other ships looking exactly or roughly like her would

c) don't know that Probert's own ship would not exist, under the name of Ambassador class, in the Trek universe somewhere off camera.

So we could just as well go for the simple approach of saying that the E-C and her ilk are of Horatio class or something like that. And that Picard's wall depicted, say, ships named Stargazer, or ships commanded by Picards, or ships formerly serving as the flagships of their respective navies, or ships designed by the same bureau and its historical antedecents, or something. As far as canon is concerned, that is.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Cary L. Brown]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Timo said:


To stir the canon soup, we

a) don't know that the ships on Picard's wall are supposed to be Enterprises (indeed, three of them are very poor portrayals of ships of that name in the canon universe, while all have lots of detail and seem to realistically portray whatever they are intended to portray)

b) don't know that the E-C would be of Ambassador class, nor that any of the other ships looking exactly or roughly like her would

c) don't know that Probert's own ship would not exist, under the name of Ambassador class, in the Trek universe somewhere off camera.

So we could just as well go for the simple approach of saying that the E-C and her ilk are of Horatio class or something like that. And that Picard's wall depicted, say, ships named Stargazer, or ships commanded by Picards, or ships formerly serving as the flagships of their respective navies, or ships designed by the same bureau and its historical antedecents, or something. As far as canon is concerned, that is.

Timo Saloniemi

I think that we do know that the 1701C was Ambassador class... even though it wasn't really visible on-screen, clearly, the dedication plaque on the 1701C bridge said so.

Debatable? Sure... I s'pose. But it's so widely accepted that it seems nearly pointless to argue it.

The REAL situation is simple... if there's a debate over which one is "real" it's the one that was seen on-screen. It was a fairly quick turn-around take on Probert's design by Sternbach and Co. It looks just fine, but omitted certain specifics of Probert's concept (as much, I presume, due to time constraints as it was due to stylistic concerns).

If we really like Andrew's original version and want to "include" it... we really can't overwrite what was seen on-screen (ie, is "official") with something which wasn't. At best, we can merge the two. OR... we can just say "in an alternate reality, it might have looked like this" (which is a perfectly fair perspective to take, IMHO).

 

[Turbo]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Alternatively, we could call Probert's design an Ambassador-class prototype that Starfleet decided not to pursue for one reason or another, unlike the Excelsior-class. The Enterprise-C could be one of the 'revised' Ambassador-class ships produced after the prototype USS Ambassador.

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Hey, how about going about this the other way? It's not the Enterprise-C and her identical-ish ships that were "revised", it was the Ambassador herself. We already know that due to studio-ish circumstances, Rick's Ambassador could not be as detailed as the one Andrew painted and is designing. The version we're seeing take shape now is more detailed, and arguably closer to the Galaxy class in many places (lots of saucer windows, curved nacelle pylons, a full phaser ring, the dish shape and placement...).

So instead of trying to retcon a debatably less complex design as a refit, why not make the Ambassador the refit instead? After a few decades of service, the USS Ambassador NCC-10521 pullled into drydock for SLEP refitting (or if you prefer, damaged in battle or by the anomaly of the week or what-have-you). In the process, they completely overhauled the original Sternbach design, upgrading the hull, nacelles and internal systems along the way, while leaving some components like the bridge module relaively intact. What you end up with is a Constitution-esque upgrade of the original not unlike what an earlier Enterprise went through. This would extend the shelf life of the original design, and make it look a little closer to the ships of the time: Galaxy, Nebula and Akira among them. Some, but not all, of the remaining Ambassadors are upgraded along these lines.

And while they were at it, they stacked the less-windowed primary hulls of the pre-refit Ambies together, drilled in more windows, gave it a fresh coat of paint, and called it Jupiter Station.

Mark

 

[Probert]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Turbo said:
Alternatively, we could call Probert's design an Ambassador-class prototype that Starfleet decided not to pursue for one reason or another...

Okay, guys, let's take a breather.

What we're all looking at is the realization of an unused "CONCEPT" for my little line of 'Concept Kit' models; nothing more, nothing less. I'm pleased that many of you seem to like it (so far) and want to incorporate it into Trekdum, but Rick's ship is canon as the Enterprise-C. Not remembering much of "Yesterday's Enterprise", I don't recall if it is actually referred to as an 'Ambassador Class' ship in the show. Nevertheless, my design was, as everyone knows, the originally intended design of Starship in use between the eras of Enterprise-B & D. The "History Wall" clearly defined that, regardless of the sculptor's less than accurate depictions, or the post Roddenberry producers' less than adequate appreciation or comprehension of continuity.

Once I get this ª¶&#ªø@+#; dorsal finished, I'll be continuing the process into that elusive engineering hull.

Meanwhile,... thanks for the support.

Andrew-

 

[Mark_Nguyen]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Welcome to Trek geek-dom, Professor P. Rest assured, we'll go over every one of your lovely ship's lines, details, nooks and crannies until we've explained every single inch of her design in several different ways. In the abscence of any ACTUAL new Star Trek stuff to tear apart, many representatives of the fandom have grasped your design as the closest thing to an addition to the franchise. Fanatacism is our namesake and our curse. And we love you for it!

And hopefully, at least one of us will get some action out of this.

Mark

 

[Starlock]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Probert said:

Turbo said:
Alternatively, we could call Probert's design an Ambassador-class prototype that Starfleet decided not to pursue for one reason or another...

Okay, guys, let's take a breather.

Watching the Tech Forum get all wound-up is the best part of the experience. But it can be exhausting.

How about one real world question I haven't seen asked yet: Any rough estimate of the cost of the kit? (Not depending on scale yet)

 

[ancient]

Re: Andy Probert releases prelim plans for USS Ambassador ki

Turbo said:
Alternatively, we could call Probert's design an Ambassador-class prototype that Starfleet decided not to pursue for one reason or another, unlike the Excelsior-class. The Enterprise-C could be one of the 'revised' Ambassador-class ships produced after the prototype USS Ambassador.

I could see that happening. For example, Starfleet has this thing about making really 'expensive' designs. It's totally possible (if you want to rationalize it) that this design was built with the latest, most experimental, highest quality tech they had...and it took 12 years to build. (The Galaxy took 6 yrs supposedly.)

Then the rommies attacked and they needed another 15 ships with the same capability as the AMBASSADOR, and they needed it yesterday and on the cheap. So they switched to a functional, if slightly older hull design and churned out the ENT-C varient.