Andorian Gender Discussion??

[raynalies]

My friend and I were researching the Andorian genders for an RP and had some pretty specific questions we couldn't find answers to and were wondering if any of you guys here could help us with some answers by getting a discussion going?

1) How does the Shens egg get transferred to the Zhen?

2) What is the difference between a Chan and a Thaan?

One theory we had was that one of the males jobs was to transfer the egg, but we were unsure which one would have that job or how it could be done, thoughts?

 

[USS Triumphant]

I don't think there's a definitive answer to any of this. I've looked. My personal theory (I wrote a little paper on it a few years ago, can't find it at the moment) models Andorian reproduction on insects that transfer sex cells from one plant to another, and the plants themselves - and through RNA transfer and other factors and a long long process of evolution, all four components (insect male, insect female, plant "male", plant "female") ended up as genders in the Andorian species.

The idea being that Male-1 (can't remember the Andorian names for each of these at the moment, and too lazy to look up ), corresponding to plant-male, gives his sex cells to Female-1, corresponding to bee-female, and while she has it, it coats her own sex cells. Then Female-1 transfers those cells (using her ovipositor?) to Male-2, corresponding to bee-male, whose own sex cells partially fertilize the cells while he's carrying them to Female-2, corresponding to plant-female. And then in Female-2, all of the cells are finally combined and somewhere between 1 and 4 eggs actually begin to grow to maturity in her uterus. When they manage to at all, because of the genetic issues the Andorians are having. (And my guess on that is that those genetic issues arise from the genomes of the plant-Andorians and the bee-Andorians re-diverging slightly.)

I also had thought that perhaps part of what is contributed by the bee-Andorians is a mitochondria analog that maybe plays a larger role in the actual genome of the host organism than ours does - which could partially account for why all four genders of Andorians clearly appear to be the same species.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I love the concept of the four-sex Andorians, it immediately makes them different and more interesting. Whenever I write them, that's what I stick too.

 

[borgboy]

Physically Chans are smaller than Thaans. Chans are typically small and willows while Thaans are big and muscular, at least that's my impression.
My understanding is that the mother who carries the baby to term doesn't contribute any genetic material.

 

[Takeru]

My friend and I were researching the Andorian genders for an RP ...

Andorians having four genders is not canonical, there's nothing in the canon that states that.

The four genders are an interpretation of Data's statement that Andorians marry in groups of four but I don't like that. Here on earth we have two genders and marry in groups of two, I know some cultures know a third gender, transgender people exist, we have gay marriage etc. but let's ignore that for the moment, for the longest time a marriage required one of each gender/sex and the purpose was to make babies and although we are moving on from that a bit when it comes to the sexes involved even liberals are still stuck on marriage being between two people although three people marrying each other shouldn't be a big deal, who are they hurting if they want to make that commitment to each other?

Anyway, taking the statement of marrying in groups of four and equating that to four genders is taking the traditional idea of human marriage and transferring it onto an alien culture (including every member of the group marriage being required to procreate) but aliens don't have to think like that.
What if the number four plays a huge part in their religion leading to four people marriages but procreating is not seen as something that has to happen inside a marriage at all, the ideas could be completely separate.

Andorians having four genders looks progressive and alien at first glance but looking at it closer it's really just a traditional human marriage dressed in sci-fi clothing (i.e. twice the numbers and blue skin). Why do they marry in groups of four? Because they need four to make a baby ... it's very conservative.

 

[uniderth]

I think that four sexes (gender is cultural, sex is biological) is a great opportunity to explore some weird (to us) stuff. If I was to sit down and try and come up with something; I would try and make four distinct sexes, rather than the male 1-2 and female 1-2 model.

 

[Six of Twelve]

Maybe they just have two sexes like us, but simply don't practice monogamy. It could be as simple as that.

 

[Kahless the Unforgettable]

Yeah, I never got the impression that they had four genders. Maybe different roles in the family unit, such as having one partner who's role is to stay home and raise and educate the children, but that's about it.

 

[Tracy Trek]

Has there ever been a canonical society in Trek other than the Vissians in Enterprise that had more than 2 genders? From the episode, The Cogenitor.

 

[borgboy]

I think the four genders is really interesting. The novels develop it really well, with a truly alien family structure and culture. As it plays out it's not as conservative as it might sound, as all four genders are expected to be true spouses, meaning their culture has an expectation of bisexuality/pansexuality. I have wondered how they deal with people who were hetero or homo sexual. I figured there would be great pressure to reproduce but once they were past their fertile years they'd be free to pursue whatever relationships they wanted.
I think the Andorians being plain old two genders who practiced polygamy is relatively boring by comparison, and there's already Phlox's people doing that.

 

[Six of Twelve]

So, only one alien species is allowed to have two sexes and be nonmonogamous? I find it rather unlikely that so many alien species are monogamous, and not so much that they usually come in two sexes.

 

[Antonovus]

It seems that the non-canonical will back your research. It could make for a good paper consisting of a series of hypotheses about the Andorian's, using them to explore their sex/gender roles and/or broader questions about gender in society. I'm not sure what you're point is though in writing the paper (or what your thesis is).

 

[Timo]

That Andorian marriages "require groups of four people" is Item #2 on a list of custom-dictated requirements for a successful marriage in various cultures. It almost automatically follows that it can't be biological if Data considers it an odd custom. And it almost automatically follows that the requirement cannot be categorical if it is merely a recipe for successful marriage, because where would unsuccessful Andorian marriages come from then? (It's a bit like saying that a human marriage involving one person is likelier to fail than one involving two people.)

Atop of all that, Data concludes his Andorian statement with an "unless" that he never gets the chance to finish. Canon thus isn't merely neutral on "Andorian genders", it really contradicts the concept.

That said, four Andorian genders is an interesting and welcome ongoing idea in the novels, and one I gladly welcome. And it doesn't take too much effort to pervert Data's phrasing into supporting or at least allowing for the four genders.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Kor]

I feel that ENT missed the boat on exploring these concepts further. What little we saw didn't seem to fit with the description given by Data.

Kor

 

[C.E. Evans]

The thing about the proposed four gender system of zhens, shens, chans, and thaans is that it still basically comes down to males and females, but with just different names for them. The real differences between them is during the creation of offspring and the roles they play, in which it requires two males (a thaan and a chan) to fertilize an egg, one female (a shen) to host the egg until it becomes a zygote, and a second female (a zhen) to carry the zygote the rest of the way.

 

[USS Triumphant]

BTW: In case it wasn't obvious (and it probably was) I'm strictly an amateur when it comes to biology. So if anyone wants to correct anything in my previous post or make suggestions to improve it, I would welcome it and take no offense. (Unless you're also rude about it. )

The thing about the proposed four gender system of zhens, shens, chans, and thaans is that it still basically comes down to males and females, but with just different names for them.

I disagree. It may seem that way to us because a. all onscreen Andorians have been played by actors that we could clearly identify as male or female humans and b. WE tend to define things by the binary ideas of the masculine and the feminine, and so if we see an Andorian that to us seems decidedly "feminine" we may decide that that's a female for our purposes, when that may have nothing to do with what is in their pants. (If you'll reread my previous post, you'll note I mentioned an ovipositor. I'm certain that might come as a surprise if "she" was in a relationship with a "straight" male from a binary sexed species. )

 

[Ithekro]

It would need a retcon (or at minimum an definition) of the genders of the Andorians seen on screen. For our purposes they were male or female, and Shran was kind of pissed when one died.

 

[borgboy]

The thing about the proposed four gender system of zhens, shens, chans, and thaans is that it still basically comes down to males and females, but with just different names for them. The real differences between them is during the creation of offspring and the roles they play, in which it requires two males (a thaan and a chan) to fertilize an egg, one female (a shen) to host the egg until it becomes a zygote, and a second female (a zhen) to carry the zygote the rest of the way.

What was interesting to me wasn't so much the reproductive process (although I found that interesting too) but the relationships between the spouses and the societal structure and expectations. The norm for them is to have a marriage with three other spouses, and that essentially it's normal for them to be bisexual/pansexual by our definition. It opens up questions such as what happens when someone isn't interested in all three other genders, as there's so much pressure for them to reproduce.

 

[Arpy]

I hope the next Trek series does more with diverse reproductive and marriage alternatives. What I get from fans' differing opinions on the Andorians is that there's curiosity and interest and creativity here that should be heeded. I'd love to see different polyamorous, (reverse-)polygamous, polygendered, and polyspecial mixes explored in the future, if we're really to get anything new and different and worthwhile.

Re-DS9 Relaunch Andorians, here's a question: what are their sex organs like? From what I remember, thaans, chans, and zhens all fertilize shens who then transfer zygotes to zhens to incubate and birth. None are Earth-like males or females, regardless how they'd be cast in live-action, and they all do The Sex with each other.

So, do they all have different kinds of innies and outies? Both female-cast shens and zhens need some kind of external organs for material transfer. But although male-cast thaans and chans don't need internal sex organs for the procreative assembly-line, note that they are not both the same sex (i.e. two thaans, impregnating a shen impregnating a zhen). They're distinct from each other for some reason, and that makes me wonder if they don't have some kind of internal organs too (after all, men have vestigial nipples even though they can't lactate).

Or, humanoid form aside, maybe they don't have anything similar down there, and they just look like wet membranes that pass genetic liquid through to each other, and that rupture at birthing time. Sexy

 

[Takeru]

(after all, men have vestigial nipples even though they can't lactate).

Of course men can lactate, male breasts are smaller and less developed than females but they are fully functional. Lactation can be induced by hormone injection, as a side effect of some medications, due to illness or by simply stimulating the breasts. The male body can produce the necessary hormones it just doesn't usually.

Fun fact, many human babies (males and females alike) lactate after birth due to their mother's hormones still being present in their system.