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an empty death and an implausible survival

Captrek

Vice Admiral
Admiral
I just watched “Yesterday's Enterprise,” and I have two questions.

First, Guinan says that Yar died “an empty death” in the original timeline. But in “Skin of Evil,” Yar dies in the line up duty on a dangerous mission to save the lives of two of her fellow officers. It seems to me that that’s pretty much the kind of death Yar would have chosen for herself. Why does Guinan call it an empty death?

Second, we learn later in the series that Yar survived the battle at Nerendra III, was captured by the Romulans, bore a half-Romulan daughter, tried to escape when her daughter was four years old, got caught and was executed.

But the idea that Yar was captured alive by the Romulans is unbelievable. She would never allow that to happen, and no member of the Enterprise crew would allow it. Allowing Romulus to get ahold of somebody with Tasha Yar’s extensive knowledge of military technology from 22 years in the future is courting disaster. If they figure out who she is and what she knows and manage to extract that information from her, the Federation is royally f*cked. I would think Yar would kill herself before allowing herself to be captured by Romulans, and any member of the Enterprise crew (yes, even Castillo) would also kill her before allowing her to be captured. If by some miracle Romulans did capture her alive, she would commit suicide at the first opportunity rather than risk the Romulans getting at the knowledge inside her head. Even if she were pregnant, the stakes are so high that she’d kill herself and her unborn child before putting the whole Federation at risk of Romulan conquest.

Do we ever get a plausible explanation, even a non-canon one, for how she ended up living in Romulan custody for five years, or is that just a logic hole we’re supposed to ignore?
 
Guinan said Yar's original death was pointless because it was just a show of power by Armus, and her death didn't help anyone really.

As for her survival, it was a contrivance because Crosby begged to be brought back again.
 
Guinan said Yar's original death was pointless because it was just a show of power by Armus, and her death didn't help anyone really.
So suppose, for example, that she had to free climb a hazardous cliff face to get to fellow officers who needed her help, and fell to her death when a ledge gave way. That death too would not contribute directly to the success of the mission, but would it be considered an empty death? She undertakes hazardous missions for the sake of others. If she dies in the course of such a mission, isn’t that the death of a hero?

Sure, it would be nice if her death contributed directly to the success of the mission. If she could script it herself, her death would probably be an intentional sacrifice that turns a certain-to-fail mission into a success and saves the whole ship. But we can’t all be Spock, and a death isn’t empty just because it doesn’t play out quite like that.

As for her survival, it was a contrivance because Crosby begged to be brought back again.

Couldn’t they come up with a more plausible contrivance?

Personally, I wouldn’t have bothered trying. I would have just told her, “Sorry, we’re not bringing you back.” She’s easily the worst actor among regular cast members. By comparison, Wil Wheaton is Sir Lawrence Olivier.

But if they were determined to bring her back, surely they could have come up with something that a little bit of sense. Maybe it’s not as absurd as it seems. Is there an explanation, either canon or apocryphal, that makes it seem less ridiculous?
 
Amen. They brought her back for YE, an episode that is excellent despite her presence. That should have been the end of it.
 
Actually I think of Tasha's return in YE to be a great move. I was not a fan of Tasha in the first season, but I liked her different "returns". This kind of mucking about with the timeline is kind of a seed for the new movie. Yes, her death was pointless and empty. Just a random act of nastiness from Armus. I liked the idea of the Romulan commander - perhaps he protected her from the interrogation. She surely was tough enough to get through it. It could be just silly love on his part and she initially may have felt the same way.

As for this idea that a member of the crew would kill her - I think you're mistaken. The captain would have gone out of his way to save her - he's risked Federation security in episodes like "I, Borg" and he would again in favor of compassion. The "foolishness" of love and compassion can cause people to do irrational and contradictory acts.
 
As for this idea that a member of the crew would kill her - I think you're mistaken. The captain would have gone out of his way to save her - he's risked Federation security in episodes like "I, Borg" and he would again in favor of compassion.
Personally, I don’t care for “I, Borg” because I find Picard’s decision to be indefensible.
 
Well, Picard's decision in "I, Borg" is a moot point since we know from later on that it wouldn't have worked anyways.
 
Well, Picard's decision in "I, Borg" is a moot point since we know from later on that it wouldn't have worked anyways.

Still indefensible at the point-in-time that he made it. It was at that point I just lost complete interest in TNG.
 
I thought about it from his position, and even without knowing about "Descent" I still agreed:

- The Feds, at that point, were not a threat to the Borg from the Borg's POV. That's why it's always one Cube that's more or less just experimenting with new ways to assimilate beings.

- I find it impossible to believe that no other race ever attempted a viral program on the Borg before. And seeing how the Borg are still around with their advanced tech beyond the Federation I'd have little faith in any type of viral attack some Fleet Engineer just came up with even if he were my own Engineer.

- If it was attempted to be used as a weapon on the Borg and DIDN'T work, the Borg would be alerted to this attack and decide that the Feds aren't worth keeping around as test subjects and would move to REALLY attack them in force.

So it's a situation wherein they can use the viral program which likely wouldn't work and bring the wrath of the Borg upon them when it likely WOULD fail, or they can NOT use the program and continue on with the Borg not really putting much effort into attacking them.
 
I thought about it from his position, and even without knowing about "Descent" I still agreed:

- The Feds, at that point, were not a threat to the Borg from the Borg's POV. That's why it's always one Cube that's more or less just experimenting with new ways to assimilate beings.

- I find it impossible to believe that no other race ever attempted a viral program on the Borg before. And seeing how the Borg are still around with their advanced tech beyond the Federation I'd have little faith in any type of viral attack some Fleet Engineer just came up with even if he were my own Engineer.

- If it was attempted to be used as a weapon on the Borg and DIDN'T work, the Borg would be alerted to this attack and decide that the Feds aren't worth keeping around as test subjects and would move to REALLY attack them in force.

So it's a situation wherein they can use the viral program which likely wouldn't work and bring the wrath of the Borg upon them when it likely WOULD fail, or they can NOT use the program and continue on with the Borg not really putting much effort into attacking them.

Agreed - although the episode pushed the heavy-handed moralising, the decision made sense from a strategic standpoint as well - Starfleet was hardly ready to take on a full Borg invasion if their actions caused that. It would be like a small nation with one nuke firing it at the USA - the odds of crippling your enemy are fairly small, while the odds of getting your ass royally kicked fro your trouble are fairly high.
 
I thought about it from his position, and even without knowing about "Descent" I still agreed:

- The Feds, at that point, were not a threat to the Borg from the Borg's POV. That's why it's always one Cube that's more or less just experimenting with new ways to assimilate beings.

- I find it impossible to believe that no other race ever attempted a viral program on the Borg before. And seeing how the Borg are still around with their advanced tech beyond the Federation I'd have little faith in any type of viral attack some Fleet Engineer just came up with even if he were my own Engineer.

- If it was attempted to be used as a weapon on the Borg and DIDN'T work, the Borg would be alerted to this attack and decide that the Feds aren't worth keeping around as test subjects and would move to REALLY attack them in force.

So it's a situation wherein they can use the viral program which likely wouldn't work and bring the wrath of the Borg upon them when it likely WOULD fail, or they can NOT use the program and continue on with the Borg not really putting much effort into attacking them.

Agreed - although the episode pushed the heavy-handed moralising, the decision made sense from a strategic standpoint as well - Starfleet was hardly ready to take on a full Borg invasion if their actions caused that. It would be like a small nation with one nuke firing it at the USA - the odds of crippling your enemy are fairly small, while the odds of getting your ass royally kicked fro your trouble are fairly high.

And I would agree with those points. But those are not the reasons given in the episode.
 
And I would agree with those points. But those are not the reasons given in the episode.

Oh I agree with regard to the ridiculous premise in the episode that Picard forgave the Borg for attempting genocide against his home planet and violating him a hundred times worse than rape because one of them was kind of cute after being separated from the collective mind.
 
He didn't forgive the Borg, he just decided it wasn't good to hold it against Hugh since he wasn't part of the Collective mind that did do those things and had a choice for the first time in his life. Having Picard be that out-of-control against someone who was pretty much in the same position he was in would have just ruined his character even though there are elements of the fandom who would think him being so hate-filled and irrational would have made him more "real".
 
I think "empty" describes it fairly well. Although, as Worf points out, it was also an honorable death. In truth, she died trying to get to Troi. (Now. No one jump in and say that's why it was an empty death!) But there was an emptiness to the way she was just swatted out of existence like a bug. She died like a Redshirt. No main cast member should go out like a redshirt. Although it was a nice memorial. And Data will always have his "special program". :)
 
I think "empty" describes it fairly well. Although, as Worf points out, it was also an honorable death. In truth, she died trying to get to Troi. (Now. No one jump in and say that's why it was an empty death!) But there was an emptiness to the way she was just swatted out of existence like a bug. She died like a Redshirt. No main cast member should go out like a redshirt. Although it was a nice memorial. And Data will always have his "special program". :)

Ah, but she didn't die just like a redshirt. Dr Crusher spent more time trying to save Yar's life than she spent trying to save everyone else she ever treated on the show put together, including the person she incorrectly diagnosed as dead.
 
I don't understand all this talk about how Yar would have rather died/killed herself than allowed herself to be captured and how her death was not empty because she died in the line of duty. She wasn't a Klingon. And Worf made the distinction of what kind of death constitutes an honourable one in that episode of DS9 where he has to go to all this trouble of risking his life on a dangerous mission in order to get his wife into Klingon heaven because the way she was offed wasn't honourable enough (and obviously just like Yar's death, both in how it happened and the fact that it happened because the actor quit).
 
He didn't forgive the Borg, he just decided it wasn't good to hold it against Hugh since he wasn't part of the Collective mind that did do those things and had a choice for the first time in his life. Having Picard be that out-of-control against someone who was pretty much in the same position he was in would have just ruined his character even though there are elements of the fandom who would think him being so hate-filled and irrational would have made him more "real".

It wasn't about being hate filled and out-of-control. It should have been about a military commander weighing the situation in military terms. He decides not to go because Geordi has found a new pet. It's not that he didn't launch the weapon... it's that he didn't launch it for the wrong reasons.
 
It wasn't exclusively just because Geordi liked Hugh. He weighed the decision from a POV no one else could have, a former Borg himself. He was best qualified to make that decision. And I already pointed out why he would decide not to do it anyways.
 
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