In that case, we don't even know they were digitized. Maybe they're just dead.
An Alternative Reading of TMP
- Thread starter YARN
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In that case, we don't even know they were digitized. Maybe they're just dead.
Do we know that for a fact? The Talosians managed to get Kirk to Talos IV against his will. They managed to fool him into thinking that Commodore Mendez was with him the entire time. How do we know they didn't fool him into beaming down into their zoo and that he's been there ever since, with the entirety of TOS after "The Menagerie" all being an illusion?
My theory is Kirk's still on Talos IV. He knew too much to be allowed to leave.
Kirk was never on Talos IV.
In a sense he was never on Talos IV, since (as far as we see in the episode) he doesn't actually set foot on the planet. However, he was at Talos IV as he was on a ship in orbit around the planet. It would have been a simple matter for the Talosians to get him planetside and prevent him from leaving, without him ever realizing it.
Which makes you wonder, if the Talosians were as intelligent as we are led to believe, why did they ever let Captain Pike know he had been captured in the first place? They lured the Enterprise to Talos IV via illusions, and they tried to get him to be happy with Vina using illusions, but in the middle of that, they dropped all the illusions, shot him with a weapon of some sort, and stuck him in a zoo cage.
Wouldn't it have suited their plan better to put him in a scenario where he never realized he had been captured, and let him "meet" Vina more naturally, and try to foster a relationship between them? By letting him know he had been captured, they put him on the defensive from the very first moment.
YARN
Fleet Captain
This is all well and good, but my pet theory explains discrepancies between TMP and the later films.
It explains:
*How the Enterprise's shields implausibly held against the attack (they didn't).
*McCoy's reversal (e.g., "It's an addiction!" then "Get back your command!).
*The difference between the 2001-style realism of TMP and the fantasy/action driven nature of the later films (When Uhura announces "This is fantasy!" in STKIII this hangs a lantern on the difference in style).
*How all the films secretly hang together as a journey through Kirk's subconscious impulses.
*Why the V'Ger story largely the same as the NOMAD story.
While your scenario is just a possible, it does not add anything in the way of explanation, and is, therefore, not preferable.
One other issue I have with your scenario... if it is correct, then would that not then also mean that the rest of the adventures of all the various series set after TMP are also fantasies inside Kirk's mind? After all, he meets and interacts with Picard in a reality that wipes out the Enterprise-D and results in us getting the Enterprise-E in the next film. Also, events that occurred in the movie timeline are referenced in other series episodes. For example, in Voyager, we learn that Tuvok was aboard the Excelsior during the events of TUC, and that those events pretty much unfolded the way TUC told us.
So for all of this to make logical sense, all of TNG, DS9, Voyager, and the four TNG films would have to be figments of Kirk's imagination as well, and playing out within V'Ger, wouldn't they?
So for all of this to make logical sense, all of TNG, DS9, Voyager, and the four TNG films would have to be figments of Kirk's imagination as well, and playing out within V'Ger, wouldn't they?
What it adds is a sarcastic and hopefully amusing parody of your theory.
Another pet theory is that Kirk and everything that happens to him aren’t even real, but are part of a fiction constructed in a lower reality which in turn is a fiction or simulation in yet a lower reality. Go down enough layers and you get to a “reality” that is actually a simulation running in Vejur. Turtles repeat periodically all the way down.
YARN
Fleet Captain
Strictly speaking, the theory is meant to cover TOS only. Like Nu-Trek, it breaks ties with TNG and beyond.
I suppose Generations could come near the end of his digitization/probe. His reality begins breaking down. His main narrative comes to an odd end with a death fantasy (Enterprise B), but as his consciousness is still being processed, a fantasy life in "the Nexus" ensues. "Picard" pulls Kirk out of the Nexus for one more conscious adventure. Kirk "dies" (Generations) at precisely the moment that his consciousness infuses with the rest of the reality which has been absorbed by the probe. His "oh my" his moment of peering into the deeper consciousness which has absorbed him.
Or perhaps they don't exist at all. Like the Star Wars Prequels
I have a better theory: Kirk and Picard actually never left the Nexus. The Nexus just created yet another illusion where they think they escaped and stopped Soran. In Picard's fantasy, they stopped him, but Kirk died in the process. Picard then got a brand-spanking new ship, fought and killed the Borg Queen, stayed completely out of the Dominion War and instead got to have a moment with a 300 year old woman who looks 40, and finally got to drive a jeep around and fought and killed his own clone. And in Kirk's frame of reference, he stopped Soran, but Picard died. Kirk then assumes command of the new Enterprise-E and has equally implausible adventures of his own in his own fantasyland. We were only shown Picard's point of view.
And in the real world, First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis never happened.
Of course, this theory kinda falls flat when we see Troi and Barclay alive and well in Voyager, when they should have been blown to bits along with the rest of the Enterprise-D when Veridian III exploded. Unless the entire Voyager series was also just a figment of Picard's imagination.
Yeah, I'm starting to like this theory of mine...
And in the real world, First Contact, Insurrection, and Nemesis never happened.
Of course, this theory kinda falls flat when we see Troi and Barclay alive and well in Voyager, when they should have been blown to bits along with the rest of the Enterprise-D when Veridian III exploded. Unless the entire Voyager series was also just a figment of Picard's imagination.
Yeah, I'm starting to like this theory of mine...
As the end of All Good Things... approached, I began to wonder whether in the end Picard was going to be returned to the point where the Enterprise first encountered Q's forcefield in space, way back in Encounter at Farpoint.
From one point of view that would have made sense. Q would have been testing mankind's resolve - thoroughly - before allowing him to explore the rest of the galaxy. Everything in the series would have taken place in one of Q's pocket universes. I could have really dug that, to a point.
But for the idea to really make sense, Picard would have had to forget everything that happened over the run of the series, like a dream fading, and pretty quickly. Otherwise, he would know how to solve too many situations ahead of time; I can't see it being Q's intent to loose upon the galaxy a prescient commander of a Galaxy-class starship, when he had been so concerned about testing him beforehand, under more normal circumstances.
But even that way of dealing with foreknowledge - erasing it - would have undermined the final conversation between Q and Picard that we were given.
So, alas, my cute little idea couldn't work.
From one point of view that would have made sense. Q would have been testing mankind's resolve - thoroughly - before allowing him to explore the rest of the galaxy. Everything in the series would have taken place in one of Q's pocket universes. I could have really dug that, to a point.
But for the idea to really make sense, Picard would have had to forget everything that happened over the run of the series, like a dream fading, and pretty quickly. Otherwise, he would know how to solve too many situations ahead of time; I can't see it being Q's intent to loose upon the galaxy a prescient commander of a Galaxy-class starship, when he had been so concerned about testing him beforehand, under more normal circumstances.
But even that way of dealing with foreknowledge - erasing it - would have undermined the final conversation between Q and Picard that we were given.
For this to make sense, Picard has to retain memory of Q. Picard has to know that he is always being judged, moment to moment.
So, alas, my cute little idea couldn't work.
YARN
Fleet Captain
The ontology of the Nexus never made sense to me anyhow. You can go into it. Can somehow leave it with a fairy tale act of will? But a version of you stays there? Mmmmkay....
If it weren't for Guinan already spelling out the rules of the Nexus in advance, I'd be more than willing to buy this theory.
I like it! Very funny. "Gets to drive a jeep."
Of course, this theory kinda falls flat when we see Troi and Barclay alive and well in Voyager, when they should have been blown to bits along with the rest of the Enterprise-D when Veridian III exploded. Unless the entire Voyager series was also just a figment of Picard's imagination.
Yeah, I'm starting to like this theory of mine...
I like it too!
But that's my point: That was all bullshit. The "family" illusion wasn't working. The Nexus needed to improvise. How do we know that the "Guinan" Picard was speaking with wasn't just another illusion created by the Nexus to edge Picard into meeting Kirk and fool them into thinking that they could escape the Nexus when in fact they're trapped in it forever?
And don't forget: The Borg Queen was in Voyager too. But if my theory is correct, the Borg Queen only existed in Picard's imagination. So that's more evidence that Voyager didn't really exist!
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DS9 plays out a very similar story in The Search.
YARN
Fleet Captain
But that's my point: That was all bullshit. The "family" illusion wasn't working. The Nexus needed to improvise. How do we know that the "Guinan" Picard was speaking with wasn't just another illusion created by the Nexus to edge Picard into meeting Kirk and fool them into thinking that they could escape the Nexus when in fact they're trapped in it forever?
Perhaps, but then how did they ever get into the Nexus?
You need a plausible point of entry for the illusion or what we have is indistinguishable from solipsism.
The Nexus was a terribly conceived and executed idea.
There are plenty of other ways to get Kirk into the TNG time period. He shouldn't have been there to being with. You didn't need to have him had off the torch to the new kids.
I need an option where I can believe that the Nexus doesn't exist too.
Here's my recollection (I will watch the movie again later to be sure):
1. Both Soran and Guinan were passengers on the Lakul. At some point the ship was damaged passing through the Nexus, and they were sucked into it. A few seconds later, Scotty beamed the survivors to the Ent-B, including Soran and Guinan, who were "in-between" fluxing between the Lakul and the Nexus. So in real-time, they were only there for a few seconds, but in their fantasy time, it was much longer. In this instance they were both removed from the Nexus against their will.
2. Kirk was similarly pulled into the Nexus when the Ent-B was hit by the Nexus's lightning bolt or whatever. Now at this point, in a different interpretation, it's quite possible that Kirk did in fact die by being blown out into space, and his appearance in the Nexus was just part of the whole fantasy. IIRC, Picard had just recently learned of Kirk's fate when they learned of Soran's plans to redirect the Nexus. The whole thing about "part-Guinan" instructing Picard to recruit Kirk to help him stop Soran could have all been nothing more than an illusion based on Picard's overactive imagination. So Picard thinks he's back in reality with Kirk, when in fact he's still in the Nexus by himself.
Heck, this should be in a thread topic all its own.
*Edit* I also realize that this theory again falls apart with the appearance of Worf on DS9. However, because Generations took place after DS9's second season, we could speculate that seasons 3-7 was also created from Picard's imagination, with him wanting his friends to continue with their lives too. After all, in one of the next movies (I forget which), Picard makes a comment about Worf being away from DS9. If this was just a fantasy, then Worf wouldn't have been on DS9. He'd have been killed on Veridian III just like everyone else.
1. Both Soran and Guinan were passengers on the Lakul. At some point the ship was damaged passing through the Nexus, and they were sucked into it. A few seconds later, Scotty beamed the survivors to the Ent-B, including Soran and Guinan, who were "in-between" fluxing between the Lakul and the Nexus. So in real-time, they were only there for a few seconds, but in their fantasy time, it was much longer. In this instance they were both removed from the Nexus against their will.
2. Kirk was similarly pulled into the Nexus when the Ent-B was hit by the Nexus's lightning bolt or whatever. Now at this point, in a different interpretation, it's quite possible that Kirk did in fact die by being blown out into space, and his appearance in the Nexus was just part of the whole fantasy. IIRC, Picard had just recently learned of Kirk's fate when they learned of Soran's plans to redirect the Nexus. The whole thing about "part-Guinan" instructing Picard to recruit Kirk to help him stop Soran could have all been nothing more than an illusion based on Picard's overactive imagination. So Picard thinks he's back in reality with Kirk, when in fact he's still in the Nexus by himself.
Heck, this should be in a thread topic all its own.
*Edit* I also realize that this theory again falls apart with the appearance of Worf on DS9. However, because Generations took place after DS9's second season, we could speculate that seasons 3-7 was also created from Picard's imagination, with him wanting his friends to continue with their lives too. After all, in one of the next movies (I forget which), Picard makes a comment about Worf being away from DS9. If this was just a fantasy, then Worf wouldn't have been on DS9. He'd have been killed on Veridian III just like everyone else.
Strictly speaking, the theory is meant to cover TOS only. Like Nu-Trek, it breaks ties with TNG and beyond.
I suppose Generations could come near the end of his digitization/probe. His reality begins breaking down. His main narrative comes to an odd end with a death fantasy (Enterprise B), but as his consciousness is still being processed, a fantasy life in "the Nexus" ensues. "Picard" pulls Kirk out of the Nexus for one more conscious adventure. Kirk "dies" (Generations) at precisely the moment that his consciousness infuses with the rest of the reality which has been absorbed by the probe. His "oh my" his moment of peering into the deeper consciousness which has absorbed him.
Or perhaps they don't exist at all. Like the Star Wars Prequels
My God, it's full of stars.
YARN
Fleet Captain
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