America and Socialism...

[TedShatner10]

With outrageous stories of credit cards paying for health care, if the United States of America trucks on with Neo-Liberal economic policies, with an strained private health care worsening the national debt, the country will perhaps be reduced to a comparatively impoverished third rate power like Brazil or Argentina within half a century.

America has more to gain and less to lose if it becomes partially socialist, espcially with health and education, but on the other hand I can understand why anti-socialism is deeply ingrained dogma, what with America's most genuine military threat being the USSR for many years and Communism being seen as subversive for many decades. With even cuddly Scandinavian socialism being tainted by association.

Also one of the hallmarks of Reagan-style Conservatism is a very bitter vehemence against taxes, despite the fact that taxes are a necessary evil to sustain a developed nation, even though I agree that excessive taxes and government abuse with taxes are legitimate problems.

 

[sidious618]

The funny thing is that Reagan raised taxes but most of his admirers won't admit that.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

I believe in capitalism because I'm a competitor and know how to make money. I can certainly understand if someone lacks in this area though, and is cool with the government taking care of them from cradle to grave. But this increasingly hypothetical someone would not be me.

 

[MANT!]

And I'm glad for that...

 

[Leroy]

TedShatner10:
With outrageous stories of credit cards paying for health care,

That's one of the worst solutions I've seen for healthcare reform I've seen since reform has become a serious issue. Check out these articles I've found on the status of the "greatest health care system in the world".
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/08/shriners.hospitals/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/19/begala.health.care/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/index.htm

TheLonelySquire wrote:
I believe in capitalism because I'm a competitor and know how to make money. I can certainly understand if someone lacks in this area though, and is cool with the government taking care of them from cradle to grave. But this increasingly hypothetical someone would not be me.

That's not really the issue the issue is working hard doesn't cut it anymore when you could be ruined by hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of doctor bills. I like to be self reliant too but I also like to live in the real world.

Socialism and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive the two can exist side by side the fire department, police, and postal service are all examples of socialist concepts.

 

[DiSiLLUSiON]

Socialism and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive the two can exist side by side the fire department, police, and postal service are all examples of socialist concepts.

Sometimes, I believe that if it were up to some Americans, you'd have to write a check before the fire dept. would actually start to put out the flames on your burning house. Unless it's their house, of course; then they'd suddenly be vehemently against the idea.

 

[Thespeckledkiwi]

I believe in capitalism because I'm a competitor and know how to make money. I can certainly understand if someone lacks in this area though, and is cool with the government taking care of them from cradle to grave. But this increasingly hypothetical someone would not be me.

Have fun paying for that 500,000 dollar heart attack!

 

[Pingfah]

Snide little comments like the one TLS made are simply an attempt to paint the issue as entirely black and white so that ill considered, simplistic and one sided points of view appear to be less absurd, whilst painting all those in a less fortunate or successful position as incapable to boost one's own flagging self esteem.

They aren't really worth giving any serious thought to.

 

[alasdairsim]

If America embarks on a slope towards socialism I don't think there will be any going back. I, for one, hope this never happens.

 

[RJDiogenes]

Everybody remember to stick to point and counterpoint in a Thread like this, and not turn it into a personal conflict. Thank you.

As for the Topic: Society is a Socialist concept. As has been said, the Police, the Fire Department, Libraries, Post Office, Armed Forces et cetera, are all Socialist. Insurance is a Socialist concept. Unfortunately, it's very difficult to have a debate about government services without running into lingering Cold War paranoia.

 

[TedShatner10]

The funny thing is that Reagan raised taxes but most of his admirers won't admit that.

Most likely to cover the costs of the US Military. And Reagan ran up a big deficit as well (although the deficit was not as disasterous as Bush's).

 

[TheLonelySquire]

TedShatner10:
With outrageous stories of credit cards paying for health care,

That's one of the worst solutions I've seen for healthcare reform I've seen since reform has become a serious issue. Check out these articles I've found on the status of the "greatest health care system in the world".
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/08/shriners.hospitals/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/06/19/begala.health.care/index.html
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/05/bankruptcy.medical.bills/index.htm

TheLonelySquire wrote:
I believe in capitalism because I'm a competitor and know how to make money. I can certainly understand if someone lacks in this area though, and is cool with the government taking care of them from cradle to grave. But this increasingly hypothetical someone would not be me.

That's not really the issue the issue is working hard doesn't cut it anymore when you could be ruined by hundreds upon hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of doctor bills. I like to be self reliant too but I also like to live in the real world.

Socialism and capitalism aren't mutually exclusive the two can exist side by side the fire department, police, and postal service are all examples of socialist concepts.

I wouldn't argue that we need health care reform. But to have the government deciding what services are dolled out to who and when, is utterly ridiculous. I can't think of a solitary government agency that runs efficiently. I can't think they would run this any differently.

What we need is for every American to have ACCESS to AFFORDABLE health care. No able-bodied adult should be entitled to a free ride. Not one. If you're disabled or down on your luck, there should be a social safety net for that. But at some point a person needs to take responsibility for their own life and not expect the government to do it. That saps initiative. Then again many people simply don't have any.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Snide little comments like the one TLS made are simply an attempt to paint the issue as entirely black and white so that ill considered, simplistic and one sided points of view appear to be less absurd, whilst painting all those in a less fortunate or successful position as incapable to boost one's own flagging self esteem.

They aren't really worth giving any serious thought to.

Whatever. Less fortunate people are less fortunate for a reason. If they are disabled or elderly they should receive assistance. If not, they can work like the rest of us.

And again, I realize health care needs reform. We just don't need a "health czar" or government agency determining who gets what procedure and when.

 

[Pingfah]

Nobody said they shouldn't work. The only person who keeps saying others want a system where they can do nothing and just get free handouts all their life is you.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Nobody said they shouldn't work. The only person who keeps saying others want a system where they can do nothing and just get free handouts all their life is you.

Well, when you have guaranteed child care, guaranteed higher education, guaranteed health care and the guaranteed right to own a home, what exactly are you working for?

Here's a gem for ya... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI

 

[Pingfah]

Nobody said they shouldn't work. The only person who keeps saying others want a system where they can do nothing and just get free handouts all their life is you.

Well, when you have guaranteed child care, guaranteed higher education, guaranteed health care and the guaranteed right to own a home, what exactly are you working for?

To pay the taxes to support the system. Duh. Oh and little things like food, cars, heating and all the luxuries that the welfare state cannot and does not support. Quite simple really.

That you boil down a social and political system as complicated as socialism to a single concept, and label its proponents as simply lazy people who don't want to work betrays either total ignorance of the concept or intellectual dishonesty. Either way, it's not possible to have a fruitful discussion about socialism with you.

Here's a gem for ya... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI

Can't load Youtube at work.

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Nobody said they shouldn't work. The only person who keeps saying others want a system where they can do nothing and just get free handouts all their life is you.

Well, when you have guaranteed child care, guaranteed higher education, guaranteed health care and the guaranteed right to own a home, what exactly are you working for?

To pay the taxes to support the system. Duh. Oh and little things like food, cars, heating and all the luxuries that the welfare state cannot and does not support. Quite simple really.

That you boil down a social and political system as complicated as socialism to a single concept, and label its proponents as simply lazy people who don't want to work betrays either total ignorance of the concept or intellectual dishonesty. Either way, it's not possible to have a fruitful discussion about socialism with you.

Here's a gem for ya... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P36x8rTb3jI

Can't load Youtube at work.

Sorry, I don't buy into a system that taxes me more than someone who is less ambitious or less willing to work than I am, just so they can be comfortable. If I want to charitibly give I'll do it on my own, thank you.

Oh, and those luxuries. Smart Car? Being allowed to only set the temperature in my house to a certain level? Are you kidding me? Not what this country is all about.

People like me are already sheltering our income. For example, I do consulting for companies in Amsterdam, the UK, and Canada. Not one penny of that is going into a U.S. bank account. And I'll bet I'm not alone.

 

[Pingfah]

Sorry, I don't buy into a system that taxes me more than someone who is less ambitious or less willing to work than I am, just so they can be comfortable.

You always have been in a system like that.

But again, most of those that earn less do not do so simply because they are unwilling or less ambitious. You keep repeating the same tired fallacies over and over again, yet they remain equally untrue every time you do so. This is what I mean about not being able to discuss it fruitfully with you, you deliberately perpetuate misconceptions so that you can disagree with concepts that you have defined erroneously.

Oh, and those luxuries. Smart Car? Being allowed to only set the temperature in my house to a certain level? Are you kidding me? Not what this country is all about.

Yeah, that's what the UK is all about, smart cars and heating levels, you've really got the whole system pegged

 

[TheLonelySquire]

Sorry, I don't buy into a system that taxes me more than someone who is less ambitious or less willing to work than I am, just so they can be comfortable.

You always have been in a system like that.

But again, most of those that earn less do not do so simply because they are unwilling or less ambitious. You keep repeating the same tired fallacies over and over again, yet they remain equally untrue every time you do so. This is what I mean about not being able to discuss it fruitfully with you, you deliberately perpetuate misconceptions so that you can disagree with concepts that you have defined erroneously.

Oh, and those luxuries. Smart Car? Being allowed to only set the temperature in my house to a certain level? Are you kidding me? Not what this country is all about.

Yeah, that's what the UK is all about, smart cars and heating levels, you've really got the whole system pegged

No, it is not a fallacy. Any person can do or be anything they want to be here. If they choose not to apply themselves they will be poor. You may not like to hear that, but that is indeed the case.

And I understand the need for social safety nets. I am all for a hand up. Just not for a hand out.

And trust me, I just returned from the UK and saw everything I needed to see.

 

[Pingfah]

And trust me, I just returned from the UK and saw everything I needed to see.

"Trust you". Yeah, i'm sure you know everything about us now.