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Am I the only one who found the Bajorans slightly bothersome?

Snowdrop82

Commander
Red Shirt
This may just be a very unpopular opinion, but I never was fond of the Bajorans, it to me felt like that they were the least interesting species of the show - they don't look that much different from humans. They always seem to play the victim card when it comes to the Cardassians. They could have been more interesting if it was proven that the Bajorans and Cardassians came from the same species in the distant past in a more overt manner. What do other people think?
 
So they would have been more at home in TOS?

They might have been more interesting if we'd gotten more glimpses of pre-Occupation Bajor - see what they've become as a result of their oppression, and what they could become again.
 
Honestly I kinda felt that way about the Cardassians.

To me there just wasn't much difference between them and the Romulans really, just sneaky brutal villains
 
This may just be a very unpopular opinion, but I never was fond of the Bajorans, it to me felt like that they were the least interesting species of the show - they don't look that much different from humans. They always seem to play the victim card when it comes to the Cardassians. They could have been more interesting if it was proven that the Bajorans and Cardassians came from the same species in the distant past in a more overt manner. What do other people think?
I remember this to be an oft repeated complaint about the Bajorans, even during the show’s original run. It’s why the writers largely stopped writing episodes about “boring Bajoran politics and religion” after season two. And still to this day you’ll often see this brought up as a reason why the first two or three seasons weren’t as good as the later seasons, when the focus shifted to the Dominion. So I wouldn’t exactly call it an “unpopular opinion”.

Personally I was always fascinated by the Bajorans and consider basically all Bajor-centric episodes to be very strong, especially during those first two years. There’s so much stuff to find interesting about them, and it’s wonderful to see how much of it holds up and is still relevant (or even more relevant) today. Themes of religiosity, the dangers of a theocracy, religious fundamentalism trying to bring anti-science to schools, terrorist as (anti-)heroes, the ramifications of decades of occupation and racial oppression — it’s frankly incredible how topical and interesting this show was. It also helped that three of the main Bajorans on the show were portrayed by insanely talented acting legends like Nana Visitor, Louise Fletcher and Camille Saviola. I couldn’t give a fuck about how they looked almost like humans. You could argue this makes them and their stories even more relatable to the human viewership.

I also have to say that I think it’s problematic to say they “always seem to play the victim card when it comes to the Cardassians”. To me the Occupation of Bajor was rather obviously a stand-in for the real world Shoah, with the religious Bajorans as the victims of the fascist state Cardassians. IIRC, the occupation lasted 50 or so years, they plundered the planet’s resources, enslaved the Bajorans and probably killed millions of them in what we would surely call a genocide. How could they not constantly bring up that fact, especially when the Cardassians still presented such an omnipresent danger? Anything else would have been completely unrealistic. Plus, I’d argue it’s unfair to characterize them that way, when we had several Bajorans who turned out to be perpetrators doing questionable things during the occupation themselves.

And finally, I’m not sure how much more interesting it would have been to establish the Cardassians and the Bajorans were once the same species. I think what they actually did on the show — show us that the Bajorans were a much older species that used to be technologically and culturally more advanced than the Cardassians before they besieged them — was a much more interesting notion.
 
I thought it was silly that highly advanced aliens were still considered gods - by some, at least - even after it was proven they were affected by mortal technology.
 
I thought it was silly that highly advanced aliens were still considered gods - by some, at least - even after it was proven they were affected by mortal technology.
I agree, that probably doesn’t make a whole lot of logical sense. But I guess that’s religion for ya. We just had the head of one of our largest real world Earth religions seriously declare “gender ideology” as the "ugliest danger" of our time, seemingly blissfully ignorant of the ongoing wars and the danger of a third world war. So I guess that kinda tracks. :lol:

Then again, aren’t there Earth religions that feature gods that aren’t necessarily invulnerable or immortal? One could argue it’s less silly to consider advanced aliens as gods, since at least there's concrete evidence of their existence.
 
Then again, aren’t there Earth religions that feature gods that aren’t necessarily invulnerable or immortal?

"But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone." (Hebrews 2:9 ESV)

Jesus took the form of a man to die for our sins. So aliens could conceivably believe their "gods" did likewise.
 
Voluntarily choosing to be vulnerable and/or being forced to assume a lesser/mortal form by beings of equal or greater power (Hello, Q) is a bit different. I doubt the wormhole aliens (excuse me..."Pah Wraiths") desired to possess a weakness. On this subject, there were times when it seemed as though the writers wanted to exist in two contradictory states simultaneously.
 
Then again, aren’t there Earth religions that feature gods that aren’t necessarily invulnerable or immortal? One could argue it’s less silly to consider advanced aliens as gods, since at least there's concrete evidence of their existence.
Ragnarok is literally the deaths of the Norse Gods. Part of which is set in motion by the death Baldar.
 
Voluntarily choosing to be vulnerable and/or being forced to assume a lesser/mortal form by beings of equal power (Hello, Q) is a bit different. I doubt the wormhole aliens (excuse me..."Pah Wraiths") desired to possess a weakness. On this subject, there were times when it seemed as though the writers wanted to exist in two contradictory states simultaneously.
Pah Wraith are exiles from the wormhole. Fallen Angels if you will.
 
I remember this to be an oft repeated complaint about the Bajorans, even during the show’s original run. It’s why the writers largely stopped writing episodes about “boring Bajoran politics and religion” after season two. And still to this day you’ll often see this brought up as a reason why the first two or three seasons weren’t as good as the later seasons, when the focus shifted to the Dominion. So I wouldn’t exactly call it an “unpopular opinion”.

Personally I was always fascinated by the Bajorans and consider basically all Bajor-centric episodes to be very strong, especially during those first two years. There’s so much stuff to find interesting about them, and it’s wonderful to see how much of it holds up and is still relevant (or even more relevant) today. Themes of religiosity, the dangers of a theocracy, religious fundamentalism trying to bring anti-science to schools, terrorist as (anti-)heroes, the ramifications of decades of occupation and racial oppression — it’s frankly incredible how topical and interesting this show was. It also helped that three of the main Bajorans on the show were portrayed by insanely talented acting legends like Nana Visitor, Louise Fletcher and Camille Saviola. I couldn’t give a fuck about how they looked almost like humans. You could argue this makes them and their stories even more relatable to the human viewership.

I also have to say that I think it’s problematic to say they “always seem to play the victim card when it comes to the Cardassians”. To me the Occupation of Bajor was rather obviously a stand-in for the real world Shoah, with the religious Bajorans as the victims of the fascist state Cardassians. IIRC, the occupation lasted 50 or so years, they plundered the planet’s resources, enslaved the Bajorans and probably killed millions of them in what we would surely call a genocide. How could they not constantly bring up that fact, especially when the Cardassians still presented such an omnipresent danger? Anything else would have been completely unrealistic. Plus, I’d argue it’s unfair to characterize them that way, when we had several Bajorans who turned out to be perpetrators doing questionable things during the occupation themselves.

And finally, I’m not sure how much more interesting it would have been to establish the Cardassians and the Bajorans were once the same species. I think what they actually did on the show — show us that the Bajorans were a much older species that used to be technologically and culturally more advanced than the Cardassians before they besieged them — was a much more interesting notion.
I agree completely with everything there.

I thought it was silly that highly advanced aliens were still considered gods - by some, at least - even after it was proven they were affected by mortal technology.
It's a core tenet of Christianity that God is affected by mortal technology, so that premise is not at all at odds with how at least one major real-world religion operates. Something can't be any more realistic than how it is in the real world, so....

Additionally, gods-are-aliens is pretty much baked into Star Trek from the get-go. No later than "Who Mourns for Adonais?" it was dealt with explicitly in the context of human gods. So, the Bajorans turned the premise on its head, pushed back, and provided an alternative take for the Federation-types to deal with. As @Michael said, that made DS9 relevant to the real world and provided topical sources for drama. It's still relevant today, for example because religious fundamentalists are trying to run the USA. Resonating with contemporaneous issues has also been something that Star Trek does and is expected to do.

Finally, the conceit that the Prophets were "just" wormhole aliens was turned on its head more than once when nobody, including any of the Federation scientists, was able to explain just how the Prophets did what they did. One prominent example is in "Accession" when Akorem's The Call of the Prophets is both completed and remembered as having been unfinished in the same timeline ("The Prophets work in mysterious ways.").
 
I thought it was silly that highly advanced aliens were still considered gods - by some, at least - even after it was proven they were affected by mortal technology.

Religion tends to not make any sort of logical sense across the board. But even the most logical, scientific minds can still be religious. Doesn't make sense to me personally, but... I guess it doesn't have to.

I appreciated the in-depth look at a Trek alien race.

The whole topic of religion in Trek is interesting, as there 100% are "gods" in how we would understand them today. The Bajorans have a rare religion that can provide hard proof of their beliefs... the Prophets ARE real, they HAVE interacted with Bajor, and they... quite literally DID send the Emissary to protect them. Their religion is "right", as in, its factually correct.

One small gripe I have... the Orb of Time from "Trials and Tribbleations" doesn't make sense. The Prophets don't understand time. How did they make an Orb to manipulate time?
 
This may just be a very unpopular opinion, but I never was fond of the Bajorans, it to me felt like that they were the least interesting species of the show - they don't look that much different from humans. They always seem to play the victim card when it comes to the Cardassians. They could have been more interesting if it was proven that the Bajorans and Cardassians came from the same species in the distant past in a more overt manner. What do other people think?
One of my favorite species, while the Cardassians are my least favorite, after the Klingons.

One small gripe I have... the Orb of Time from "Trials and Tribbleations" doesn't make sense. The Prophets don't understand time. How did they make an Orb to manipulate time?
The Orb was their attempt to understand time. It didn't work.
 
I'm not convinced the Prophets don't understand time. They may actually understand it far better than we do.

They don't understand our limited ('linear') perception of it, though.

That could be true, they understand "time", they just have a different perspective on it.
 
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Another strike against their purported deific status: an inability to understand a concept until a bloke wanders by in a pocket dimension resembling a game of baseball.
 
Another strike against their purported deific status: an inability to understand a concept until a bloke wanders by in a pocket dimension resembling a game of baseball.

They aren't omnipotent or omniscient, but does that preclude "godhood"? What is a deity or god anyway?

The thing is that they weren't unable to comprehend it, they just had never paid enough attention to the insignificant beings on the outside that they didn't notice. Once Sisko goes on about time, they get it pretty quickly.

It's less inability to understand a concept, more they just... didn't care to even notice it.
 
Another strike against their purported deific status: an inability to understand a concept until a bloke wanders by in a pocket dimension resembling a game of baseball.
The function of Sisko's interaction with the Prophets in "Emissary" was less about educating them as to how corporeal beings experience linear time than it was about the Prophets getting Sisko to see that he did not in fact experience time the way he thought he did. The Prophets educated Sisko, not the other way around. Arguably their questions were all about spurring him into self-examination, which climaxes when he accepts that his experience of time is in fact not linear because he continuously dwells on the past.

And anyway, being absolutely omniscient (i.e., knowing everything) is not universally regarded as a necessary attribute of a deity.

A major argument against its necessity is in order not to exclude free will by requiring that the deity have precise foreknowledge of all future events.

They aren't omnipotent or omniscient, but does that preclude "godhood"? What is a deity or god anyway?
Exactly.

The thing is that they weren't unable to comprehend it, they just had never paid enough attention to the insignificant beings on the outside that they didn't notice. Once Sisko goes on about time, they get it pretty quickly.

It's less inability to understand a concept, more they just... didn't care to even notice it.
That's a reasonable take also.
 
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Ancient Greeks had little-g gods, like Apollo. Vastly more powerful than humans, yet not at all omniscient or omnipotent and no better at controlling their feelings than humans.
 
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